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Daniel Cipriani
05-09-2008, 04:15 AM
Hello Dr. Solimene,

I do not disagree with your response...I was simply implying that to
consider the action of the TA, one must consider all the joints it crosses,
and not simply the ankle joint (dorsiflexion/plantarflexion)...and that if
one is describing the inversion/eversion action, it is important to identify
the joint at which this motion occurs. In the earlier discussion, it seemed
that inversion and dorsiflexion were mentioned without indication of the
joints involved in these motions (implying only movement at the ankle).

And I agree that the anatomical plane of reference is troubling, given that
ankle dorsiflexion is not pure to the anatomical sagittal plane.

I also concur that the movement at the ankle joint is not independent of the
subtalar joint, especially when we are describing a weight bearing action -
I failed to differentiate between a weight bearing action vs. a non weight
bearing action of the TA. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, most certainly,
when a muscle actively shortens, it involves all the axes it crosses.

Daniel



Daniel Cipriani, PT, PhD
School of Exercise and Nutritional Sciences
San Diego State University
5500 Campanile Drive
San Diego CA 92182-7251
(office) 619.594.1922
(lab) 619.594.5625
(fax) 619.594.6553
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/ens/ens_web/faculty/cipriani.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: as572@columbia.edu [mailto:as572@columbia.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:52 AM
To: Daniel Cipriani
Cc: BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL
Subject: Re: [BIOMCH-L] Locating Tibialis Anterior tendon's actionlineusing
MRI


Dr. Cipriani,

Actually the tendon of the TA crosses several joints on its way its
distal attachment. I believe it is necessary to define the line of
action relative to all the joints ( read - axes of rotation) it
passes. A task I do not believe has been done to this time.

It is questionable if the talo-crural joint and subtalar are truly
independent. The line of action of a given muscle will "work" all
the joints it passes.

Firstly, I find it difficult to accept the notion / concept that two
joints are independent when the movement occurring at these joints
occurs in different planes.

Secondly, the idea / notion that a description of movement depends
upon the plane(s) in which that movement takes place is significant
eludes me.

I believe, from your statement, that our definitions of inversion and
eversion are different. I don't understand the usage of your term "a
frontal plane motion" Nor indeed the term "is nearly a sagittal plane
motion " for the talo crural joint.

My difficulty with the use of anatomical planes to describe motions is
that it does not take into account for the range of movement and the
repositioning of the involved joints. It is a static rather than a
more dynamic and functional approach.

It is my belief that the usage of anatomical planes to describe
motions and movement unnecessarily complicates descriptions without
adding any additional useful or functional information. I think it is
clearer if one depends on body specific references rather than space
reference terms.

Dr. Alfonso Solimene



Quoting Daniel Cipriani :

> In response to the discussion on the line of action for the TA, it is
> important to keep in mind that the TA works across two different joints,
the
> ankle joint and the subtalar joint, which are essentially independent.
>
> The ankle joint (talocural joint) and the subtalar joint...these two
joints
> are independent in that the ankle joint motion is nearly a sagittal plane
> motion (dorsiflexion/plantarflexion) - keeping in mind that the
orientation
> of the axis of motion for the ankle joint is not purely a
frontal-horizontal
> orientation. And the subtalar joint motion is mainly of inversion/eversion
> (a frontal plane motion), and its axis is not purely in the
> sagittal-horizontal orientation. The line of action of the TA might be
> described relative to the joint action of interest separately (ankle joint
> and dorsiflexion/plantarflexion, and the subtalar joint
inversion/eversion)
>
>
> Daniel Cipriani, PT, PhD
> School of Exercise and Nutritional Sciences
> San Diego State University
> 5500 Campanile Drive
> San Diego CA 92182-7251
> (office) 619.594.1922
> (lab) 619.594.5625
> (fax) 619.594.6553
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: * Biomechanics and Movement Science listserver
> [mailto:BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL] On Behalf Of Greiner Thomas
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:43 AM
> To: BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL
> Subject: Re: [BIOMCH-L] Locating Tibialis Anterior tendon's action
lineusing
> MRI
>
> A few comments in response to my response on the tibialis anterior. I
> think we are mostly in agreement, but perhaps talking past each other.
>
>
> "1. The anatomical planes of reference are arbitrary.
>
> 2. The line of force or action of any muscle does / do not occur "along
> an artificial, and arbitrary, geometry" - it occurs where it occurs AND
> during the range of motion of the involved body segments the position of
> the line of action of a muscle continuously changes."
>
> This was my point exactly, although perhaps you say it better. The
> anatomical planes are artificial and arbitrary and if you limit your
> investigation to those planes you should not be surprised that muscle's
> action line has an oblique orientation.
>
> "4. I respectful disagree that the line of action need be in the
> sagittal plane to obtain meaningful data. It is done mathematically."
>
> I agree completely. This is a consequence that a muscle's force of
> action "occurs where it occurs." That, is another way of saying that you
> should not expect of find anatomical evidence of a muscular action line
> if you limit your investigation to a single anatomical plane.
> Investigations in three dimensions may eventually allow you to resolve
> an action line to a particular plane, but before you can do that math
> you need to know what the muscle does when it does something. Inasmuch
> as Tibialis Anterior is a dorisflexor and an inverter (or perhaps
> sometimes and everter) the line of action of its insertion tendon will
> lie oblique to the sagittal plane. Therefore you cannot caputre the
> muscle's action line if investigation is limited to that plane. This is,
> effectively, the same thing as saying that for the "TA there are more
> than one line of action."
>
> Thomas M. Greiner, Ph.D.
> Anatomist and Physical Anthropologist
> Dept. of Health Professions
> University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
> 1725 State Street
> La Crosse, WI 54601 USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: as572@columbia.edu [mailto:as572@columbia.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:16 PM
> To: BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL
> Cc: Greiner Thomas
> Subject: Re: [BIOMCH-L] Locating Tibialis Anterior tendon's action
> lineusing MRI
>
>
> Dr Greiner,
>
> Four thoughts and observations ..
>
> 1. The anatomical planes of reference are arbitrary.
>
> 2. The line of force or action of any muscle does / do not occur "along
> an artificial, and arbitrary, geometry" - it occurs where it occurs AND
> during the range of motion of the involved body segments the position of
> the line of action of a muscle continuously changes.
>
> A long while ago - some anatomists differentiated "Pure" from "Compound"
> motion.
> Pure motion was supposed to occur within (parallel to) the three
> anatomical planes. Compound motion was any movement that
> simultaneous intersected two or more of the anatomical planes.
> Fortunately this unwieldy descriptive method is no longer widely used.
>
> a. To my knowledge there is no general agreement as to action of the
> tibialis anterior muscle. In Lanz and Wachsmuth's anatomical atlas, the
> tendon to the tibialis anterior lies on the axis of inversion and
> eversion, if that is its true location, i.e. its moment arm relative
> to this axis is zero. One can therefore conclude that in the
> anatomical position the TA is neither, and functions as a dorsi-flexor.
> This conclusion is perhaps most reasonable.
>
> I don't recall the reference, but I remember learning that electrical
> stimulation of the belly of the TA would produce inversion in @50% of
> cases and in @50% eversion. It may be worth redoing this study.
>
> 3b. In the case of the TA it is realistic to consider the reversal of
> muscle action during the range of motion of the foot at the ankle.
> This could be associated with the recruitment of muscle force during
> movement / locomotion.
>
> 4. I respectful disagree that the line of action need be in the sagittal
> plane to obtain meaningful data. It is done mathematically.
>
> For Dr. Miller -
> Most likely, given the width of the tendon and the area of attachment of
> the TA there are more than one line of action.
>
> For Thomas -
> FYI - I am also an anatomist and physical anthropologist
>
> Cheers
>
> Dr. Alfonso Solimene
>
>
>
> Quoting Greiner Thomas :
>
>>
>> I believe the problem you are encountering is due to the fact that
>> that action of tibialis anterior is oblique to the anatomical
>> reference planes. You are forcing the measurement of muscle activity
>> to occur along an artificial, and arbitrary, geometry.. Inasmuch as
>> tibialis anterior is primarily a foot inverter, I doubt that you would
>
>> ever be able to obtain realistic and meaningful measured values if
>> your perspective is limited to the sagittal plane.
>>
>> Thomas M. Greiner, Ph.D.
>> Anatomist and Physical Anthropologist
>> Dept. of Health Professions
>> University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
>> 1725 State Street
>> La Crosse, WI 54601 USA
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: * Biomechanics and Movement Science listserver
>> [mailto:BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL] On Behalf Of Stuart Miller
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:10 AM
>> To: BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL
>> Subject: [BIOMCH-L] Locating Tibialis Anterior tendon's action line
>> using MRI
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>>
>>
>> My colleagues and I have recently started to calculate the moment arm
>> of the tibialis anterior and Achilles tendon. The method we are using
>> is the Reuleaux graphical analysis. The images of the ankle are
>> collected using MRI techniques. The images are collected in the
> sagittal plane.
>> This technique has been described in Maganaris et al. (1999); Clinical
>
>> Biomechanics 14 pp661-666.
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem we are experiencing is of locating the action line of the
>> tibialis anterior. The tibialis anterior tendon crosses the sagittal
>> plane, so only an oval cross-section can be seen. This does not appear
>
>> enough to accurately locate the action line of the tendon.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering if anyone has experienced this problem whilst using
>> this technique, and if so, can suggest any solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> The action line of the Achilles tendon is easy to see as it acts along
>
>> the sagittal plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will forward a summary of the responses in a few weeks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stuart C. Miller BSc. (Hons)
>>
>> Centre for Sports Medicine and Human Performance
>>
>> Brunel University
>>
>> London
>>
>> Middlesex
>>
>> UB8 3PH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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