View Full Version : Replies to 3D Shoulder Kinematics Post

John Barden
02-12-1998, 08:42 AM
Dear BIOMCH-L Members:

Here is the list of replies that I received to my posting before Christmas re: skin
marker placement protocols for 3D shoulder kinematics studies. My apologies for
the delay in posting these responses to the list. There are still a number of you
who replied to me that I have not had time to contact yet. I will do so in the near
future as time permits. I thank all of you very much for taking the time to respond.
Your remarks and suggestions have been very helpful. For any of you that want
further information please contact me directly. From my own reading, database
searching (Medline, ERIC, etc.) and replies, I now have a very large reference list
of shoulder papers ranging from instability to kinematics to EMG, etc. I would be
pleased to provide references and/or information to anyone who needs or could
be helped by this information. My original question appears below followed by the
replies I received. Thanks again to everyone.



John M. Barden, M.Sc.
Ph.D. student
Surgical-Medical Research Institute
Department of Surgery
Faculty of Medicine
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada T6G 2E2

Research Associate
Rehabilitation Technology Department
Glenrose Rehabilitation Hospital
10230-111 Ave.
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada T5G 0B7
Work phone: +1 403 471-2262 ext. 2397
Home phone: +1 403 477-6910
e-mail: jbarden@cha.ab.ca

************************************************** ************************************

I am looking for a skin marker placement protocol to measure the relative
motion between the scapula and humerus in a number of upper limb movements
in patients with multidirectional shoulder instability. I have not come
across anything yet in my literature review. If anyone knows of any
specific papers, or anything general on 3D kinematics of upper limb motion
(i.e., placement of markers) I would greatly appreciate the information. I
need to re-subscribe to this list so please send any information to my
personal e-mail address.

Many thanks in advance.

************************************************** *******************************

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:36:45 -0800
From: Gideon Ariel
To: J Barden
Subject: Re:

For such a measurement you must do it manually. No marker will give you
good results.
See http://www.arielnet.com

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:42:26 +0100
From: Jan Douglas-Morris
To: jbarden@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
Subject: 3-D

Dear John,

I have been searching for appropriate protocols myself to combine motion
analysis studies with finewire indwelling EMG of the shoulder for my PhD so
am very interested in any replies that you may receive, if you wouldn't
mind passing them on or posting them on the listserve please.

My overall feeling is that (i) 3-D analyses of shoulder movement are few
but increasing in number with time (ii) for simple movement such as
abduction in the coronal plane, bony landmarks are palpated and relative
position recorded at set increments (step by step isometric contractions at
predetermined joint angles)

The literature talks about a palpameter used by the Dutch shoulder group, which
may be of interest and I
was going to follow up on this - but can't
find the reference in my "large pile on the floor" lit search!!!

Some articles of interest (possibly):

Bagg, S. and Forrest, W.J. (1988) A biomechanical analysis of scapular
rotation during arm abduction in the scapular plane Am J Phys Med Rehab
Greenfield 1995 J Occup Sports Physio vol 21 287-295
Paula Ludewig's work
Also Hogfors J Biomechanchis 24 699-709 uses bone implantations and low
dose Xray to study SHR

Haven't much time at the moment to dig out any more.

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:45:25 +0100
To: John Barden
From: Jan Douglas-Morris
Subject: Re: 3D Shoulder Marker Placement Protocol Request

Dear John,

Upon reading Paula Ludewig's article ["3-D scapular orientation and muscle
activity at selected positions of humeral elevation" J Orthop and Sports
Physical Therapy 24 (2) 57-65 1996] for this abstract I am writing the
following references may be useful (unsighted by me) to you:

An, K,N,, Browne, A.O. Korinek, S. Tanaka, S Morrey BF 3-D kinematics of
gh elevation J Orthop res 9 143-149 1991

Johnson GR and Anderson JM A method for measurement of 3-D shoulder
movement by an electromagnetic sensor Clin Biomech 5 131-136 1990
(reference is missing from our faculty library so I havne't seen it yet)

Kondo, M Tazoe, S Yamada, M Changes in the tilting angle of the scapula
following elevation of the arm In Batemean JE, WeklshRP (eds) Surgery of
the Shoulder p12-16 Philadelphia BC Decker Inc 1984

McQuade KJ The scapulohumeral rhythm: A 3-D kinematic anlsyis of the
effects of load and fatigue during elevation of the arm in the scapular
plane Unpublished doctoral thesis universiyt of Iowa Iowa City IA 1994
(I would love a copy if you can got hold on one yourself)
--->? article in Clin Biomech 10: 144-148 1995 ( I have a copy of this)

Van der Helm, FCT Pronk, GM 3-D'al recording and descritpion of motions of
the shoulder mechanism J Biomech Eng 117 27-40 1995

Wei, SH. McQuade KJ, Smidt, GL 3-D joint range of motion measurements from
skeletal coordinate data J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 18(1) 687-691 1993

I noticed the Dutch palpater is referenced in the Ludewig article
James Wickham from Wollongong Uni (1 1/2 hours south of Sydney) is also
working on the shoulder (functional differentiation of large superficial
muscles, biomechanics orientation, modelling) with multiple miniature
surface electrodes (up to 7 for deltoid eg).

Hope some of this helps

Jan Douglas-Morris, (J.Douglas-Morris@cchs.usyd.edu.au)
Department of Biomedical Sciences, Telephone Voice 61 2 93519 141
Faculty of Health Sciences, Fax 61 2 93519 520
University of Sydney,
East Street,
Lidcombe NSW 2141

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:27:14 +0100
From: "Movement Analisys Lab."
To: J Barden
Subject: Re:

Hi, as you are from Canada, you may find something useful in

The development of a 'technical array' marker set for studying the
kinematics of the upper limb. Williams JR, Leardini A, Catani F. Annual
Meeting of the Canadian Orthopaedic Research Society (May 24-25 1996 Quebec).

For any further detail do not hesitate to contact me again.
Merry Christmas

Alberto Leardini

__________________________________________________ _________________

Movement Analysis Lab. Department of Orthopaedic Surgery - Istituto Ortopedico
Via Di Barbiano, 1/10 40136 Bologna, ITALY
tel: ++39 51 6366520 (secretary)
++39 51 6366571 (direct)
fax: ++39 51 583789

Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 9:46 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: Kim Burton
Subject: Re: == No Subject ==

You could start with:Johnson GR et al. A method for the measurement of
scapular movement. Clin Biomech 1993;8:269-273.

Dr Kim Burton
Editor, Clinical Biomechanics,
30 Queen Street, Huddersfield HD1 2SP, UK
Voice: +44 1484 535200

Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:14:37 -0700
From: Cole Galloway
To: J Barden
Subject: Re:

Mr Barden
I am also very interested in this issue.
Please pass along any information your receive from your inquiry.

Many thanks
Cole Galloway

================================================== =========
C.Galloway, PT
Dept Physiology/Physiological Sciences Program
University of Arizona 1501 North Campbell Ave., Room 4104 Tucson, AZ
Ph: 520-626-7718 Fax: 520-626-2383 Email: galloway@ccit.arizona.edu

Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:04:24 -0000
From: "John R. Williams"
To: jbarden@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
Subject: Shoulder Kinematics

This area is very difficult with skin markers as the skin motion artefacts
are large. I did some work on this using the Vicon system as part of my
Doctorate thesis. Veronica Conboy, also at Oxford, has done more work in
this area including the application of optimisation routines (SVD) to
improve the output.

If you what additional info then e-mail me directly and I will send you the
relevant chapters of the thesis and get Veronica to contact you.

John R. Williams
Westview House
7 Sarsden Close
Chipping Norton
01608 676700

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:57:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter J Barrance
To: J Barden
Cc: John Elias ,
Melanie Kinchen
Subject: Shoulder kinematics

Dear John,

We have some ongoing research projects in the area of shoulder
kinematics. Currently, we are using cadaver models to study passive
motion and impingement sites. Please access our website
(www.biomech.jhu.edu) for a short description of our work. We would be
interested in any responses you receive related to in vivo motion measurement


Peter Barrance

Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:00:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Frans van der Helm
To: J Barden
Subject: Re: your mail

Dear John,

In the Dutch Shoulder Group (www-mr.wbmt.tudelft.nl/shoulder/dsg/ ) we
are recording the positions of the scapula and humerus with an
electromagnetic recording device, the Flock-of-Bird system. In the
proceedings of the First Conference of the International Shoulder Group
some papers of the recordings and data processing were published. I can
send you a copy if you want.
The method is based on a palpation technique, thus only static positions
are recorded. Carel Meskers has submitted a number of papers about the
methodology and applications. Accuracy is quite good, about 2 degrees
measurement error while the intra-individual accuracy ('motor noise': the
ability to reproduce the same position again) is somewhat higher.
Static measurements mean that you can not record the actual moment of
dislocation in the multidirectional shoulder instability. We have looked
into that problem, but could not solve it yet to record it dynamically
(and accurately).
Using skin markers instead of palpating directly the bony landmarks is
likely to add to the measurement error, since the markers are not exactly
located on the bony landmarks.

Frans van der Helm

************************************************** *****************

Frans C.T. van der Helm, PhD
Man-Machine Systems Group
Lab. for Measurement and Control
Dept. of Mechanical Engineering and Marine Technology
Delft University of Technology
Mekelweg 2
2628 CD Delft
The Netherlands

tel.: (+31)-15-2785616
fax.: (+31)-15-2784717
e-mail: F.C.T.vanderHelm@wbmt.tudelft.nl

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 09:11:43 MET
From: H_E_J_Veeger@fbw.vu.nl
To: jbarden@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
Subject: marker locations

Dear John,
surprising that you did not find anything from the International Shoulder
Group. You can get info from
their web site at: http://www-mr.wbmt.tudelft.nl/shoulder/isg/isg.html
If you are interested, I have copies of the Proceedings of the first Conference
of the ISG available. These
also contain info on measurement procedures related to 3-D shoulder kinematics.


DirkJan Veeger
ISG secretary

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:44:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Suzanne R Babyar
To: J Barden
Subject: Re: your mail

Dear J Barden

I am working on a system to track scapular and humeral motion but I am
only at the validation stage of development. The best I can offer you at
this point is a protocol I used for a previous study to track scapular
elevation during shoulder flexion to 90 degrees:

Babyar SR. 1996. Excessive scapular motion in individuals recovering from
painful and stiff shoulders: Causes and treatment" Physical Therapy
76(3): 226-238.

If you need to reach Micromechanist Software, contact me, they are no
longer at the address listed in the article.

Good Luck,

Sue Babyar, PhD, PT
Hunter College
Physical Therapy Program
425 East 25th Street
New York, NY 10010

Date: 06 Jan 98 17:11:17 +0100
To: J Barden
Subject: Marker placement

Hi John,

I noticed your message to biomch-l. I'm just putting together a review
paper on arm motion analyses which includes a discussion of marker
placement. Unfortunately there is no one answer since it depends on your
tracking system, the number of cameras etc. and everybody has used something
different. Can you tell me what your setup and protocol are? What is the
goal of your research? The scapula moves under the skin, so you must
palpate the given positions statically: how are you planning to handle this?
I'll give you some references once I have a better idea what you are
looking for.


Carolyn Anglin
Sulzer Orthopedics Ltd.
P.O. Box 65
CH 8404 Winterthur

Tel: +41 (52) 262 68 32
Fax: +41 (52) 262 01 87
Email: carolyn.anglin@sulzer.ch

From: umgill19@cc.UManitoba.CA
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:43:28 -0600 (CST)
To: John Barden
Subject: Re: Replies to 3D shoulder kinematics post

Hello John, I'm well under way in a project for my Masters in Sport
Biomechanics at the University of Manitoba on glenohumeral kinematics
during a golf swing comparing three groups of golfers. The three groups
are a group of normals, a group of golfers with a recently repaired
rotator cuff, and a group of golfers with a current tear in their rotator
cuff. Anyway, your responses concerning 3-D shoulder kinematics would be
of great interest to me, especially any material on describing range of
motion using motion analysis, preferably Peak. I look forward to
chatting with you. Talk to you soon.

Bill Gillespie

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:40:55 -0800 (PST)
From: karine lecarpentier
Subject: Scapula Skin Marker Protocol

Dear John,

Your problem looks very similar to my Master's thesis. I was also studying the
movements of the humerus with respect to the scapula. More precisely, I was
studying glenohumeral translations. To track the humerus and the scapula, I was
using electro-magnetic sensors.

One sensor was attached to the elbow of the patient (epicondyle I think).
The elbow was maintained at 90 degrees to prevent any movement of the elbow
and therefore prevent movements of the sensor with respect to the bone (skin

The second sensor was attached to the fingers of the tester, and the tester
would palpate the acromion. By palpating the acromion, the tester would also
prevent the skin to move on
top of the bone.

We ran into some problems though. Even though we could track the movements
of the acromion fairly accurately, the positions we were intersting in were
the ones of the glenoid. Because the scapula rotates a lot during abduction
movements, the movements of the acromion is actually not the one of the

We thought about tracking some other points on the scapula the same way, for
instance the lower extremity of the scapula, but this has not been pursued.

If you want any additional information, please feel free to ask.
If you are thinking of pursuing the idea of electro-magnetic sensors, there
are a lot of things to be aware of. I wrote a paper on it. It is still
under review, but I could send you a copy.

Good luck!