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From: Self
To: biomch-l
Subject: Shoulder joint center of rotation
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:08:01
I am a Master's student at the Universite de Sherbrooke and I
am interested in the characteristics of the human shoulder. More
specifically, I would like to determine the joint's center of
rotation via kinematic analysis and eventually including EMG, all of
that to included those data into a articular model to analyze loading
of the lumbar spine in industrial settings.
My main question, for now, is centered on the placement of
external markers around that joint to be used in the first step of
that project. More specifically, what would be the most appropriate
anatomical landmarks to place those markers.
As always, responses will be posted.
Dany Lafontaine
Laboratoire de Biomecanique Occupationnelle
Universite de Sherbrooke
E-mail: DLafontaine@FEPS.Usherb.ca
Hi:
Concerning your question about centre of rotation of the shoulder joint, you
should talk to Dr. Malcolm Peat or Dr. Elsie Culham at the School of
Rehabilitation Therapy, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, K7L 3N6.
G.R. Colborne
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:51:23
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
From: kimberly@innovision.win.net (Innovision Systems, Inc.)
Dany:
Try contacting a friend of mine at Michigan State University. Much
of her Master's work involved shoulder investigations.
Tamara Reid-Bush email: reidtama@bim.msu.edu
She will be a good information source for you.
Good Luck.
Kimberly A. Lovasik
Director - Medical Division
Innovision systems, Inc.
email:kimberly@innovision.win.net
From: "Michel Ladouceur"
Organization: McGill University - P&OT
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:02:06 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
X-pmrqc: 1
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.11a)
Bonjour Dany,
Quel type d'analyse sera effectue? (2D-3D)?
Pour trouver le centre de rotation de la hanche (en 3D), je place une triade
de marqueur sur la cuisse et une triade de marqueur sur le pelvis.
En demandant au sujet d'effectuer des mouvements de grande amplitude
cela me permet de calculer le centre de rotation.
Pour l'epaule, les candidats sont l'humerus et l'omoplate.
Mes salutations a Denis.
Michel Ladouceur, PhD(c)
McGill University
School of P.& O.T.
3630 Drummond, Room 105
Montreal (Quebec)
H3G 1Y5
Tel: 514.398.4519
Fax: 514.398.8193
e-mail: gsml@physocc.lan.mcgill.ca
...it is true that my tactic is to make sweeping categorical
statements. Whether or not this is a fault ... is debatable. My own
feeling is that it leads more quickly to the solution of scientific
problems than a cautious sitting on the fence.
E. Mayr, _The Growth of Biological Thought_, Harvard University
Press, 1982, p. 9
From: Yves
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Message-id:
X-Envelope-to: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
X-VMS-To: IN%"DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA"
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Bonjour,
Vous pourriez contacter Mlle Laurence CHEZE
Laboratoire de biomecanique
Centre de mecanique
Universite Claude Bernard Lyon1
43 bld du 11 novembre
69622 Villeurbanne Cedex
France
Desole je n-ai pas son EmailElle a beaucoup
Avec le Pr Dimnet ee
yves Blanc
From: John Lawrence
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
In-Reply-To:
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You might want to consider that many investigators feel that the
shoulder has five "joints", one revolute (glenohumeral), one
translational (the scapulothoracic), and three hinge or axial joints
(involving the acromion, the clavicle and the scapula). You might need to
model the shoulder as a simple revolute joint with the humeral head
containing the center of rotation, its position varying with orientation
of the humerus relative to the glenoid fossa. Then use a "truss" approach
to model the clavicle and scapula as a rigid framework. This would
simplify the early analysis of humeral kinematics. Yet choice of angular
rotations of the shoulder are critical as certain motion require
significant rotations of the clavicle and translation to the scapula.
Try reading the papers by van der Helm et al. 1993, 1994 in the
Journal of Biomechanics for info on shoulder modeling. Hope this helps!
JHL
John H. Lawrence III, Ph.D.
Center for Biomedical Engineering
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0070
From: Sean Taffler
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Dany,
The shoulder joint may be defines as acomplexof several articulations:
scapulothoracic, scapulohumeral, and those at either and of the clavicle.
You need to decide whether you wish to measure global rotation or look at
the individual articulations. Obviously there would be no point inplacing
markers on the scapula if you only want total movement. Marker placement
in any case can be difficult, especially with the scapula, as there tends
to be a large skin motion artefact. On the scapula the best sites are
probably the posterior angle of the acromion and another point on the
scapular spine. it is useful in analysis to use the scapular tip but this
has a huge motion artefact which must be allowed for. On the humerus,
landmarks can be difficult to find, as this is a bone well covered by
muscle. the markers I have used are the medial epicondyle, the origin of
brachioradialis(lateral epicondyle markers tend to rotate during elbow
extension due tho the underlying brachioradialis) and the insertion of
deltoid.The next problem is your method of analysis: probably the
most reliable is helical angles, as ther are unresolved problems
with gimbal-lock in the shoulder(don't believe what Cole and
co-authors claim: I don't think they considered the effects of a
limb segment effectively turning itself upside down during
motion). Splitting the shoulder complex into scapulohumeral and
scapulothoracic components reduces, but does not eliminate this. The
basic message is it isn't at all easy to find the centre of rotation of
the shoulder joint. Good luck!
Veronica Conboy
Orthopaedic Research Fellow
Oxford Orthopaedic Engineering Centre, UK.
reply "for the attn of.." on ooec@vax.ox.ac.uk.
To: dlafontaine@feps.usherb.ca, mku@slc10.INS.CWRU.Edu
Subject: Center of Rotation
Reply-To: mku@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew K. Usey)
I'll make this short. Here's a good reference that leads to a few
other good references:
Crisco, JJ III, Chen, X, Panjabi, MM, and Wolfe, SW (1994) Optimal
Marker Placement for Calculating the Instantaneous Center of
Rotation. J. Biomechanics 27, 1183-7.
As you know, you don't have many anatomical (bony) landmarks to
work with, so you might consider using a marker-covered rigid
body attached proximal to the elbow. A marker on the acromion
process is needed to account for movements of the entire
shoulder (sterno-clavicular joint). You'll have to deal with
skin movement of this marker, however.
Hope that helps a bit. Matt
--
Matthew K. Usey, mku@po.cwru.edu
Rehabilitation Engineering Center
Case Western Reserve Univ./ MetroHealth Medical Center
Cleveland, Ohio
From: "Clarence L. Nicodemus"
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Reply-to: "Clarence L. Nicodemus"
Message-id:
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I would like to understand your specific requirements a little more. As stated
they are so broad that it would take hours to respond. Please contact me
directly if you wish. We are currently engaged in both spinal and shoulder
kinematic studies using external markers. Perhaps we can be of some assistance.
Hope to hear from you. Nic
************************************************** ****
Clarence L. Nicodemus, PhD, PE *
Assistant Professor *
Director of Spine Research *
Department of Orthopaedics *
University of Texas Medical Branch *
301 University Blvd *
Galveston, TX 77555-1028 *
(409) 747-0248 vox *
(409) 772-2266 fax *
nic.nicodemus@utmb.edu *
************************************************** ****
Hi, you might want to take a look at a Master's thesis by Lindsay
Davidson from Queen's.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Kimberly A. Dwyer, M.S. Clinical Mechanics Group
Dwyer@ME.QueensU.Ca Mechanical Engineering
Queen's University, Kingston, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
From: Self
To: biomch-l
Subject: Shoulder joint center of rotation
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:08:01
I am a Master's student at the Universite de Sherbrooke and I
am interested in the characteristics of the human shoulder. More
specifically, I would like to determine the joint's center of
rotation via kinematic analysis and eventually including EMG, all of
that to included those data into a articular model to analyze loading
of the lumbar spine in industrial settings.
My main question, for now, is centered on the placement of
external markers around that joint to be used in the first step of
that project. More specifically, what would be the most appropriate
anatomical landmarks to place those markers.
As always, responses will be posted.
Dany Lafontaine
Laboratoire de Biomecanique Occupationnelle
Universite de Sherbrooke
E-mail: DLafontaine@FEPS.Usherb.ca
Hi:
Concerning your question about centre of rotation of the shoulder joint, you
should talk to Dr. Malcolm Peat or Dr. Elsie Culham at the School of
Rehabilitation Therapy, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, K7L 3N6.
G.R. Colborne
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:51:23
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
From: kimberly@innovision.win.net (Innovision Systems, Inc.)
Dany:
Try contacting a friend of mine at Michigan State University. Much
of her Master's work involved shoulder investigations.
Tamara Reid-Bush email: reidtama@bim.msu.edu
She will be a good information source for you.
Good Luck.
Kimberly A. Lovasik
Director - Medical Division
Innovision systems, Inc.
email:kimberly@innovision.win.net
From: "Michel Ladouceur"
Organization: McGill University - P&OT
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:02:06 EST5EDT
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
X-pmrqc: 1
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.11a)
Bonjour Dany,
Quel type d'analyse sera effectue? (2D-3D)?
Pour trouver le centre de rotation de la hanche (en 3D), je place une triade
de marqueur sur la cuisse et une triade de marqueur sur le pelvis.
En demandant au sujet d'effectuer des mouvements de grande amplitude
cela me permet de calculer le centre de rotation.
Pour l'epaule, les candidats sont l'humerus et l'omoplate.
Mes salutations a Denis.
Michel Ladouceur, PhD(c)
McGill University
School of P.& O.T.
3630 Drummond, Room 105
Montreal (Quebec)
H3G 1Y5
Tel: 514.398.4519
Fax: 514.398.8193
e-mail: gsml@physocc.lan.mcgill.ca
...it is true that my tactic is to make sweeping categorical
statements. Whether or not this is a fault ... is debatable. My own
feeling is that it leads more quickly to the solution of scientific
problems than a cautious sitting on the fence.
E. Mayr, _The Growth of Biological Thought_, Harvard University
Press, 1982, p. 9
From: Yves
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Message-id:
X-Envelope-to: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
X-VMS-To: IN%"DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA"
X-VMS-Cc: BLANC
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Bonjour,
Vous pourriez contacter Mlle Laurence CHEZE
Laboratoire de biomecanique
Centre de mecanique
Universite Claude Bernard Lyon1
43 bld du 11 novembre
69622 Villeurbanne Cedex
France
Desole je n-ai pas son EmailElle a beaucoup
Avec le Pr Dimnet ee
yves Blanc
From: John Lawrence
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
In-Reply-To:
Message-Id:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You might want to consider that many investigators feel that the
shoulder has five "joints", one revolute (glenohumeral), one
translational (the scapulothoracic), and three hinge or axial joints
(involving the acromion, the clavicle and the scapula). You might need to
model the shoulder as a simple revolute joint with the humeral head
containing the center of rotation, its position varying with orientation
of the humerus relative to the glenoid fossa. Then use a "truss" approach
to model the clavicle and scapula as a rigid framework. This would
simplify the early analysis of humeral kinematics. Yet choice of angular
rotations of the shoulder are critical as certain motion require
significant rotations of the clavicle and translation to the scapula.
Try reading the papers by van der Helm et al. 1993, 1994 in the
Journal of Biomechanics for info on shoulder modeling. Hope this helps!
JHL
John H. Lawrence III, Ph.D.
Center for Biomedical Engineering
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0070
From: Sean Taffler
To: DANY lAFONTAINE
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Dany,
The shoulder joint may be defines as acomplexof several articulations:
scapulothoracic, scapulohumeral, and those at either and of the clavicle.
You need to decide whether you wish to measure global rotation or look at
the individual articulations. Obviously there would be no point inplacing
markers on the scapula if you only want total movement. Marker placement
in any case can be difficult, especially with the scapula, as there tends
to be a large skin motion artefact. On the scapula the best sites are
probably the posterior angle of the acromion and another point on the
scapular spine. it is useful in analysis to use the scapular tip but this
has a huge motion artefact which must be allowed for. On the humerus,
landmarks can be difficult to find, as this is a bone well covered by
muscle. the markers I have used are the medial epicondyle, the origin of
brachioradialis(lateral epicondyle markers tend to rotate during elbow
extension due tho the underlying brachioradialis) and the insertion of
deltoid.The next problem is your method of analysis: probably the
most reliable is helical angles, as ther are unresolved problems
with gimbal-lock in the shoulder(don't believe what Cole and
co-authors claim: I don't think they considered the effects of a
limb segment effectively turning itself upside down during
motion). Splitting the shoulder complex into scapulohumeral and
scapulothoracic components reduces, but does not eliminate this. The
basic message is it isn't at all easy to find the centre of rotation of
the shoulder joint. Good luck!
Veronica Conboy
Orthopaedic Research Fellow
Oxford Orthopaedic Engineering Centre, UK.
reply "for the attn of.." on ooec@vax.ox.ac.uk.
To: dlafontaine@feps.usherb.ca, mku@slc10.INS.CWRU.Edu
Subject: Center of Rotation
Reply-To: mku@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew K. Usey)
I'll make this short. Here's a good reference that leads to a few
other good references:
Crisco, JJ III, Chen, X, Panjabi, MM, and Wolfe, SW (1994) Optimal
Marker Placement for Calculating the Instantaneous Center of
Rotation. J. Biomechanics 27, 1183-7.
As you know, you don't have many anatomical (bony) landmarks to
work with, so you might consider using a marker-covered rigid
body attached proximal to the elbow. A marker on the acromion
process is needed to account for movements of the entire
shoulder (sterno-clavicular joint). You'll have to deal with
skin movement of this marker, however.
Hope that helps a bit. Matt
--
Matthew K. Usey, mku@po.cwru.edu
Rehabilitation Engineering Center
Case Western Reserve Univ./ MetroHealth Medical Center
Cleveland, Ohio
From: "Clarence L. Nicodemus"
Subject: Re: Shoulder joint center of rotation
To: DLAFONTAINE@FEPS.USHERB.CA
Reply-to: "Clarence L. Nicodemus"
Message-id:
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I would like to understand your specific requirements a little more. As stated
they are so broad that it would take hours to respond. Please contact me
directly if you wish. We are currently engaged in both spinal and shoulder
kinematic studies using external markers. Perhaps we can be of some assistance.
Hope to hear from you. Nic
************************************************** ****
Clarence L. Nicodemus, PhD, PE *
Assistant Professor *
Director of Spine Research *
Department of Orthopaedics *
University of Texas Medical Branch *
301 University Blvd *
Galveston, TX 77555-1028 *
(409) 747-0248 vox *
(409) 772-2266 fax *
nic.nicodemus@utmb.edu *
************************************************** ****
Hi, you might want to take a look at a Master's thesis by Lindsay
Davidson from Queen's.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
Kimberly A. Dwyer, M.S. Clinical Mechanics Group
Dwyer@ME.QueensU.Ca Mechanical Engineering
Queen's University, Kingston, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~