Summary: Embedding/Potting compounds

[Anneliese Heiner, Usa]

Here is the promised summary of embedding/potting compounds
used for biomechanical testing. Many thanks to all who
replied.

Anneliese D. Heiner

Greetings, all:

I am looking for embedding/potting compounds to use for
embedding cadaver spines for mechanical testing. I am
currently using PMMA from a dental company; it works well,
but is somewhat expensive (5 lbs for about $100). Does
anybody know of any cheaper alternatives?

I will post a summary in a couple of weeks.

Thanks,

Anneliese Heiner

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[2] From: Luc Labey at smtpmed
3/4/96 11:14AM (2 389 bytes: 41 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Dear Anneliese,

we are frequently doing biomechanical tests on femurs and tibiae.
So far, we have always used Polykit (Code : 02533 ADR -- VC
4C0130) from Akzo Nobel. It is a two compound polyester resin,
very cheap and frequently used by people who like to repair their
own cars. It cures faster than PMMA but it doesn't become so hot
(depending on the amount of hardener you add). You can work it
during 3-4 mins and then you have to leave it hardening during 15
mins.
In Belgium we pay something like 20 dollars for 2 kg of this stuff.
I hope that this helps.

Luc Labey

)( Address :
() Luc Labey
)( Division of Biomechanics and Engineering Design
() Celestijnenlaan 200A
)( B-3001 HEVERLEE
)( Belgium
() tel. : 32 16 32 7535
)( fax : 32 16 32 7994
() e-mail : Luc.Labey@mech.kuleuven.ac.be

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[4] From: at smtpmed 3/4/96 10:06AM (1150
bytes: 9 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds


We used to use Bondo (auto body filler) for embedding femurs.

Tom

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[5] From: mbrodt@icaen.uiowa.edu at smtpmed 3/4/96 10:02AM (1969
bytes: 12 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

My advisor Dr. Tom Brown once suggested Bismuth. It is a low
melting point element that dries to a brittle metal such as PMMA.
he used to use is as a grad. I know you can get it from Johnson-
Mathney but I don't know how much it costs. It is semi-not-good-
for-humans too.
-michael
--

************************************************** ***************
********** Michael Brodt mbrodt@icaen.uiowa.edu
http://www.icaen.uiowa.edu/~mbrodt
If Einstein knew so much about gravity, how come his hair always
defied it?

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[6] From: "Thomas G. Loebig" at smtpmed
3/4/96 10:02 AM (1743 bytes: 15 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Anneliese,
Auto body filler works well, is cheap, and readily available at any
auto parts store or large discount department store (Hills, Kmart,
Target, Walmart). From the can, you cannot mix it thin like PMMA
, but it will flow into holes if you force or pack it into the part
you are embedding. Once mixed it is rather sticky and cures in
about 20 minutes if mixed correctly. It is strong and sticks well
to metal. You may be able to thin it with a solvent (just a
thought, I've never tried it).
Good luck!
Tom


Thomas G. Loebig, MSME Allegheny-Singer Research
Institute Biomechanics Research Lab Pittsburgh, PA 15212
tom@biomechanics.asri.edu 412.359.6773

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[9] From: Joseph_Crisco_III@Brown.edu (Trey Crisco) at smtpmed
3/4/96 8:26AM (19 30 bytes: 34 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Hi,
It depends on the type of tesing that your doing, but for
studies other than high impact, Dental Plaster (high strength
plaster-of-paris) works great, is non toxic, and cheap.


____________________________________
J.J. Trey Crisco, Ph.D.
Director Bioengineering Laboratory
Orthopaedic Research, SWP-3
Rhode Island Hospital
Providence, RI 02903

voice: 401-444-4231
fax: 401-444-4559
e-mail: joseph_crisco_iii@brown.edu
____________________________________

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[10] From: Edward Draper at smtpmed 3/5/96
6:23AM (1713 byt es: 27 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Hi Anneliese

I have been torsionally testing long bones for several years and
have tried many different materials. The
one I use now is car body filler from a local store. I can get it
in large cans.

It has the disadvantages of being more flexible than some of the
materials I have used and taking
slightly longer to reach a working strength (15-25 minutes
depending on mix), but it is cheap, readily
available, clean (stinks a little - but not as much as PMMA) and I
can remove it readily (with a saw,
chisel and hammer).

On balance it's a material I would recommend.

Hope you find this useful.

Edward Draper PhD BSc MIMechE CEng MBES
Principal Research Fellow in Bioengineering
Orthopaedic Surgery Unit
Royal Postgraduate Medical School
London W12 ONN
England

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[11] From: R J Eveleigh at smtpmed 3/5/96
4:43AM (1448 bytes : 22 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

p.s.

Something I forgot to mention with re: Wood's metal. It's
reusable. You can heat it up, set your bone in it, and to remove
the bone you just reheat the metal again.

Hope that's of help.

Rebecca Eveleigh

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Postgraduate student

School of Mechanical Engineering
University of Bath
Bath
England BA2 7AY

Tel: (01225) 826465
E-mail: enprje@bath.ac.uk

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[12] From: R J Eveleigh at smtpmed 3/5/96
4:39AM (1523 bytes : 18 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

We use a substance called Wood's metal to pot distal ends of femur.
It is an alloy of tin, lead, bismuth and cadmium and has a melting
point of approxiamtely 70 oC making it easy to melt and use.

We obtain it from a company called MCP (Mining and Chemical
products Ltd) in the UK, who have an associate company in the
U.S.A.:-

Metalspecialties Inc
515 Commerce Drive
Fairfield
Connecticut 06430-5593

Tel: 203 384 0331
Fax: 203 368 4082

The commercial name of the metal is MCP 75, and costs approx. 18.95
pounds stirling per kilogram. So 5lb would set you back approx.
$64.

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[13] From: d.s.mcnally@bristol.ac.uk at smtpmed 3/5/96 4:29AM (2806
bytes: 45 ln , 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

We use dental STONE (Suprastone is the brand name) dental paster is
too friable. It is very hard, withstands most of the loads and
bending moments that might be placed on a single segment, is cheap
and smells nice when you mix it up with water. It also has the
major advantage that it does not cook your specimen.

Donal

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[14] From: e.e.g.hekman@wb.utwente.nl at smtpmed 3/5/96 9:25AM
(1580 bytes: 40 l n, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Anneliese,

there was a similar question on potting femurs on the forum a while
ago. Look

for the contribution (summary) by John Laughlin. A cheap
alternative seems to

be Bondo car body filler.

sample search :

// JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
search for potting femur in BIOMCH-L
index
/*

sample retrieve :

// JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
search for potting femur in BIOMCH-L
print 417, 810
/*

succes,


Edsko Hekman

Twente University
Fac. Mechanical Engineering
Lab. for Biomechanical Engineering (WB-BW)
Postbus 217
7500AE Enschede
The Netherlands tel. 31-53-4893173 fax.
31-53-4893471

e-mail e.e.g.hekman@wb.utwente.nl

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[15] From: deanp@bmesun1.MCG.EDU (C. Dean Preston) at smtpmed
3/4/96 9:02AM (138 3 bytes: 13 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

We have used plaster of paris in a test here at MCG. I have also
used a polyurethane called Fastcast to pot tibiae and femurs. You
can get it from Goldenwest MFG, Inc.
PO Box 1148
Oak Ridge, CA 95924
916-272-1133
----
C. Dean Preston
Research Design Engineer/Biomedical Engineering
Clinical Instructor/Section of Orthopaedics
Medical Illustrator
Medical College of Georgia

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[16] From: "Kaiser, Aric 301-594-2036 301-594-2358 FAX"
at smtpmed 3/4/96 3:23PM (2005 bytes: 21
ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: potting material

Anneliese,

Talk to the people that you're currently ordering PMMA from. Ask
them for pricing on dye stone (also referred to as dental stone).
It is MUCH cheaper than PMMA, easier to work with and less toxic.

It is a powder that you mix with warm/hot water. Within 20 minutes
specimens are cured enough to test at high loads. In a much
shorter time (5-10 minutes), it has cured enough to move the
potted specimen. It doesn't smell or stick to things adn cleanup
can be as easy as diluting the mixture so much that it will never
cure, after which it can be poured down a lab drain. It is
similar to plaster of Paris.

I've worked with PMMA, auto body putty and the stone. The stone
was the best to work with and would be my first choice if I were
still doing testing. I've used it for potting biological
specimens and metallic joint replacements. The applied have been
high level biaxial and low level monoaxial.

Aric Kaiser

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[18] From: "Andrew R Karduna" at
smtpmed 3/4/96 1:37PM (1967 bytes: 24 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Try using Bondo car body filler, which can be found at an
automotive parts store (PEP BOYS) for about $12/gallon.

Andrew Karduna,
University of Pennsylvania

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[19] From: "Andrew Rapoff" at
smtpmed 3/4/96 1:2 6PM (1556 bytes: 11 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: embedding/potting compounds

We use Lite Weight 3, a polyester resin auto body filler,
manufactured by the Fibre Glass-Evercoat Company, 6600 Cornell
Road, Cincinnati, OH, 45242, 513-489-7600. It is not as
exothermic during curing as PMMA, nor is it as noxious. It sets
firm quickly and solid enough for testing within 10 minutes. A
case of 4 3-liter cans is around US$60. Each can will pot about
20 spines (top and bottom).

Andrew Rapoff
University of Wisconsin - Madison

***************** Go Pucky vs. Minnesota Friday ! *************

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[20] From: John Williams at smtpmed 3/4/96 12:38PM (1800 bytes: 22 ln,
1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Try your local orthopaedic hospital for bone cement that has gone
out of date or the suppliers.

yours
John Williams

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[21] From: Spadaroj@VAX.CS.HSCSYR.EDU (Joe Spadaro) at smtpmed
3/4/96 12:33PM (1 434 bytes: 12 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

People around here are enamored with auto body filler for potting.
It mechanical properites are probably not as good as PMMA, but
it's mchh cheaper and easily available at auto parts stores $8-12
per gallon. Drawbacks: smelly during cure and longer curing time.
JAS

Joseph A. Spadaro, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - Orthopedic Research
S.U.N.Y. Health Science Center - Syracuse
spadaroj@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu

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[22] From: KUNZ@ORTHO.SURGERY.WISC.EDU at smtpmed 3/4/96 12:28PM
(1493 bytes: 12 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Hi Anneliese,

Lots of possibilities exist for potting spines. We use automotive
body filler putty which is a polyester resin with various fillers.
It is quite low in cost, readily available anywhere, less
exothermic than pmma, smelly (but less so than pmma), etc. We
often insert 1 or 2 pins through the potted vertebra for
additional security.

David Kunz
U of Wisconsin
Dept. of Ortho. Surgery
Dept. of Mech. Engineering

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[23] From: Bryan Finlay at smtpmed 3/4/96
12:07PM (1770 bytes: 25 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Hi Anneliese:

Try using an epoxy resin body-filler. The sort of thing that you
can get in bulk from your local hardware store, car-repair center,
or sail-boat repair center. It should generate no more heat than
PMMA during its curing process.

Lead-bismuth alloys (e.g. Muntz metal) have the lowest melting
temperatures (~60-deg.C) - and, with the right selection of
alloying elements, can be chosen to have a "zero"
contraction/expansion. They are, however, expensive - probably as
much as $100 for a pound and you don't get much lead in a pound!
It's expensive whether you buy in Canadian dollars or US dollars -
but it is reusable, if it doesn't get stolen. Don't forget all the
necessary precautions for working with lead.

Have fun with the project . . .


Bryan Finlay
Professor (Part-time), Medical Biophysics
University of Western Ontario

61 Hampton Crescent 519-472-1346
London, Ontario 519-473-2645 FAX and Answering Machine
Canada, N6H 2P1 bfinlay@julian.uwo.ca

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[24] From: "Kenneth R. St. John" at smtpmed
3/4/96 12:04PM ( 1588 bytes: 13 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

We use the cold cure acrylic from Beuhler but it's not any cheaper.
Five lb is $185. 25 lb (which we have purchased once) is $700.
That is just the powder. The liquid is 5 gallon $385.

************************************************** ***************
*** Kenneth R. St. John, Assistant Professor Voice: (601)
984-6199 Orthopaedic Research and Biomaterials Fax:
(601) 984-6087 University of Mississippi Medical Center Alt. Fax:
(601) 984-6014 2500 North State Street Alt. Fax:
(601) 984-5151 Jackson, MS 39216-4505 Internet:
stjohn@fiona.umsmed.edu
************************************************** ***************
***

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[25] From: Bparkski@aol.com at smtpmed 3/5/96 12:07PM (982 bytes:
12 ln, 1 fl) To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

In a message dated 96-03-04 08:32:45 EST, you write:

Dear Anneliese,

We use autobody filler for potting cadaver bone including spine.
It sets quickly and is relatively inexpensive.

Brent Parks
The Union Memorial Hospital
Biomechanics Research Lab

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[26] From: kthoma@nomvs.lsumc.edu at smtpmed 3/5/96 10:06AM (2629
bytes: 51 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: (none)

Anneliese Heiner:
I use plain (casting) plaster to mount almost everything.
We "borrow" it from our orthotics/prosthetics shop (they buy it in
huge bags). Its cheap (free), mix with water, no bad smell,
nontoxic, etc. I've used it for spines, femur-acetabulum,
just about everything. You can also pin the specimens with either
screws or pins or wires, then slop the plaster in. It is still not
easy to remove, but I'm sure its easier than pmma or "Bondo", which
is almost impossible.

If youo ohave it, look at Orthopedics, Vol. 17, 527-537, 1994, for
a brief description of a spine project where I used it. Kevin
Thomas
__________________________________________________ _______________
_______

You can't have everything - where would you put it?
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it.

__________________________________________________ _______________
_______

Kevin A. Thomas, Ph.D. LL SSSSSSS UU
UU Associate Professor LL SS
UU UU Louisiana State University Medical Center LL
SSSSSSS UU UU Department of Orthopaedic Surgery LL
SS UU UU 2025 Gravier Street, Suite 400
LLLLLLL SSSSSS UUUUUUUU New Orleans, LA 70112

Voice: 504-568-4680 (main number)
504-568-2254 (direct)
Facsimile: 504-568-4466

Visit our WWW page: http://www.lsumc.edu/orth/surg/

================================================== ===============
======= --Interpart.Boundary.19960305100655641--

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[27] From: Mikul Talaty at smtpmed
3/7/96 8:42AM (1889 bytes: 43 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: potting compound

Anneliese,
I did some preliminary material testing of bovine femur/tibia
complexes a few years ago, and used off-the-shelf autobody
compound. It was a standard filler compound used to smooth out
dents in a car. You had to mix two compounds together, and then
pot your specimen. It dried to testing hardness in roughly an
hour, and was quite cheap. It seemed to work well (i.e. did not
crack or allow any noticable relative motion) for cyclic
compression loading.

Good luck.

Mukul.

________________________________________

Mukul Talaty
Gait & Motion Analysis Lab
MossRehab Hospital
1200 W. Tabor Road
Philadelphia, PA 19141

Phone: (215) 456 - 9901 x 9308
Fax: (215) 324 - 2290

________________________________________
_________________________________________

Mukul Talaty
Biomedical Engineering
& Science Institute
Drexel University
32nd & Chestnut Streets
Philadelphia, PA 19104

Phone: (215) 895 - 1342
Fax: (215) 895 - 1478

email: talatymc@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu

_________________________________________

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[28] From: "Heather E. Hallenbeck" at
smtpmed 3/7/96 3:20AM (1372 bytes: 8 ln, 1 fl)
To: Spinelab at UMMEDNET
Subject: Re: Looking for embedding/potting compounds

Ms. Heiner: In the Orthopedic Research Lab at SUNY Health Science
Center in Syracuse, New York, they use automotive body filler and
hardener as potting compound.

Heather Hallenbeck
hehallen@mailbox.syr.edu

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