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On 15-OCT-1996 I wrote:
************************************************** *****
Dear Biomch-Lers:
In the paper: "Optimal Coordination and Control of Posture and
Locomotion" the authors (Rolf Johansson and Mans Magnusson) say:
"...it has not yet been experimentally established whether human stance
and locomotion do indeed obey an optimality principle. One reason this
issue has not been settled would appear to be the few available mathema-
tical results concerning analysis of the optimization problems involved."
I intend to develop an animation system with capabilities to help
in this kind of investigation So, I would appreciate any help concerning
the following questions:
- Is there already any software tools with such capabilities?
- If someone has any interest in this subject, which are the main
characteristics or facilities do you think such a tool should have?
I would like to know also about other references in this field of
research. The ones I have are:
"The Complete Optimization of a Human Motion" - H. Hatze
"Optimization of Muscle-Force Sequencing in Human Locomotion" -
Pedotti et al
"Studies of Human Locomotion via Optimal Programming"-
Chow and Jacobson
I will post a summary of replies to the list.
Thank you in advance,
Maria Augusta
************************************************** *****
It follows the summary of responses I received. Thank you very
much to all who helped and sorry about the delay in sending this
summary :-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
1-
Dear Maria,
A couple of references follow. You might also like to look at
Winters and Woo (Eds) Multiple Muscle Systems, published by
Springer-Verlag in 1990.
Best wishes - it is a fascinating area!
Marshall, R.N. and Jennings, L.S. Performance objectives in the
stance phase of human pathological walking. Human Movement Science
9: 599-611, 1990
Marshall, R.N., Wood, G.A. and Jennings, L.S. Performance objectives
in human movement: a review and application to the stance phase of
normal walking. Human Movement Science 8: 571-594, 1989.
Bob Marshall
Associate Professor R.N. Marshall
Sport and Exercise Science
The University of Auckland
ph +64 9 373 7599 X6630
fax +64 9 373 7043
Private Bag 92019
Auckland, New Zealand
ph. +64 9 373 7599 X6630
fax. +64 9 373 7043
email r.marshall@auckland.ac.nz
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
2-
I suggest that you look at the following paper:
Collins JJ (1995) "The redundant nature of locomotor optimization laws". J
Biomechanics, 28(3):251-267.
It discusses the various optimization functions which have been developed to
analyse and model human gait. I am not sure what software was used, I think
it was custom-written?
Regards,
Tim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Timothy M Barker email t.barker@qut.edu.au
Lecturer in Medical Engineering phone +61 7 3864 1734
School of Mechanical, Manufacturing fax +61 7 3864 1469
and Medical Engineering
Queensland University of Technology
GPO Box 2434
Brisbane. QLD 4001
AUSTRALIA
Web Site: http://www.bee.qut.edu.au/mech/staff/tbarker/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
3-
You should get
The Three-Dimensional Analysis and Prediction of Human Walking. Which is
Bart Koopman's PhD thesis from the University of Twente in The
Netherlands. Bart has also published more recent work in this field.
__________________________
Ben Heller (Ph.D)
Clinical Scientist
Dept. Of Medical Physics
Royal Hallamshire Hospital
Glossop Road
Sheffield S10 2JF
B.Heller@Sheffield.AC.UK
__________________________
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
4-
> I would like to know also about other references in this field of
>research. The ones I have are:
>
> "The Complete Optimization of a Human Motion" - H. Hatze
> "Optimization of Muscle-Force Sequencing in Human Locomotion" -
> Pedotti et al
> "Studies of Human Locomotion via Optimal Programming"-
> Chow and Jacobson
>
I'd look up these two, they're both good papers and have good lists of
relevant references:
Crowninshield and Brand, 'A Physiologically Based Criterion of Muscle Force
Prediction in Locomotion.'
J.Biomech 14(11) pp.793-801 (1981)
Pierrynowski and Morrison, 'A Physiological Model for the Evaluation of
Muscular Forces in Human Locomotion: Theoretical Aspects.'
Mathematical Biosciences 75: pp.69-101 (1985)
Ian Fisher
__________________________________________________ __________________
Biomechanics Section
Mechanical Engineering Dept.
Imperial College of ST & M.
i.fisher@ic.ac.uk
__________________________________________________ _________________
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
5-
Dear Maria
> Subject: optimization software
>
> In the paper ... the authors say:
> "...it has not yet been experimentally established whether human stance
> and locomotion do indeed obey an optimality principle. One reason this
> issue has not been settled would appear to be the few available mathema-
> tical results concerning analysis of the optimization problems involved."
>
> I intend to develop an animation system with capabilities to help
> in this kind of investigation.
It would appear to me that the task that you are setting yourself is
an impossible one. This is because "Optimization" is not a precise
mathematical operation but is dependant on opinion. To illustrate
this point I quote for Webster's Dictionary:
Optimization: to make as perfect, effective or functional as possible.
Optimism: an inclination to put the most favorable construction upon
actions and events or to anticipate the best possible outcome.
The key difference between these two definitions is that OPTIMIZATION
is an impersonal third person statement of fact. Use of the third
person is an established method of reporting scientific data, but
its use does not automatically make the subject a scientific
analysis.
The problem is that there is no mathematical symbol for "perfect as
possible". This is a human concept. The reason that there is no
"mathematical results concerning the analysis of the optimization
problems involved" is simply because the "problem" is neither
analytical nor mathematical; but dare I say is a figment of an overly
persistent (optimistic) scientific imagination.
I would personally conclude from the literature that BECAUSE THERE IS
NO EXPERIMENTAL VERIFICATION FOR THE OPTIMIZATION PRINCIPLE that it
does not exist, a conclusion that no doubt will be disputed by the
eternally optimistic. This criticism should come as no surprise
because it is a prerequisite for "optimization methods" that there
be a continual striving for an intractable answer (the definition of
an optimist?
The very concept of optimization accepts as a starting point that the
method is wrong. Surely the only debate is how wrong? A needless
question, I would suggest. An analysis of various optimization
methods, as you correctly suggest, would be a test of the Optimality
Principle. However such a study is neither impersonal nor logical,
therefore there cannot be impersonal logical software code available
on the subject. If you find some let me know!
I hope this answers two of the questions you posed:
> Is there already any software tools with such capabilities?
>If someone has any interest in this subject, which are the main
> characteristics or facilities do you think such a tool should
> have?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
Hi-
I'm interested in your post and I also know of some more
references, but I don't have time to find them now.
I'll try to get them to you.
I would also like to know where to locate the articles that
you mentioned in your post.
Cheers,
Mariano
garcia@tam.cornell.edu
************************************************** *****
Dear Biomch-Lers:
In the paper: "Optimal Coordination and Control of Posture and
Locomotion" the authors (Rolf Johansson and Mans Magnusson) say:
"...it has not yet been experimentally established whether human stance
and locomotion do indeed obey an optimality principle. One reason this
issue has not been settled would appear to be the few available mathema-
tical results concerning analysis of the optimization problems involved."
I intend to develop an animation system with capabilities to help
in this kind of investigation So, I would appreciate any help concerning
the following questions:
- Is there already any software tools with such capabilities?
- If someone has any interest in this subject, which are the main
characteristics or facilities do you think such a tool should have?
I would like to know also about other references in this field of
research. The ones I have are:
"The Complete Optimization of a Human Motion" - H. Hatze
"Optimization of Muscle-Force Sequencing in Human Locomotion" -
Pedotti et al
"Studies of Human Locomotion via Optimal Programming"-
Chow and Jacobson
I will post a summary of replies to the list.
Thank you in advance,
Maria Augusta
************************************************** *****
It follows the summary of responses I received. Thank you very
much to all who helped and sorry about the delay in sending this
summary :-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
1-
Dear Maria,
A couple of references follow. You might also like to look at
Winters and Woo (Eds) Multiple Muscle Systems, published by
Springer-Verlag in 1990.
Best wishes - it is a fascinating area!
Marshall, R.N. and Jennings, L.S. Performance objectives in the
stance phase of human pathological walking. Human Movement Science
9: 599-611, 1990
Marshall, R.N., Wood, G.A. and Jennings, L.S. Performance objectives
in human movement: a review and application to the stance phase of
normal walking. Human Movement Science 8: 571-594, 1989.
Bob Marshall
Associate Professor R.N. Marshall
Sport and Exercise Science
The University of Auckland
ph +64 9 373 7599 X6630
fax +64 9 373 7043
Private Bag 92019
Auckland, New Zealand
ph. +64 9 373 7599 X6630
fax. +64 9 373 7043
email r.marshall@auckland.ac.nz
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
2-
I suggest that you look at the following paper:
Collins JJ (1995) "The redundant nature of locomotor optimization laws". J
Biomechanics, 28(3):251-267.
It discusses the various optimization functions which have been developed to
analyse and model human gait. I am not sure what software was used, I think
it was custom-written?
Regards,
Tim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Timothy M Barker email t.barker@qut.edu.au
Lecturer in Medical Engineering phone +61 7 3864 1734
School of Mechanical, Manufacturing fax +61 7 3864 1469
and Medical Engineering
Queensland University of Technology
GPO Box 2434
Brisbane. QLD 4001
AUSTRALIA
Web Site: http://www.bee.qut.edu.au/mech/staff/tbarker/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
3-
You should get
The Three-Dimensional Analysis and Prediction of Human Walking. Which is
Bart Koopman's PhD thesis from the University of Twente in The
Netherlands. Bart has also published more recent work in this field.
__________________________
Ben Heller (Ph.D)
Clinical Scientist
Dept. Of Medical Physics
Royal Hallamshire Hospital
Glossop Road
Sheffield S10 2JF
B.Heller@Sheffield.AC.UK
__________________________
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
4-
> I would like to know also about other references in this field of
>research. The ones I have are:
>
> "The Complete Optimization of a Human Motion" - H. Hatze
> "Optimization of Muscle-Force Sequencing in Human Locomotion" -
> Pedotti et al
> "Studies of Human Locomotion via Optimal Programming"-
> Chow and Jacobson
>
I'd look up these two, they're both good papers and have good lists of
relevant references:
Crowninshield and Brand, 'A Physiologically Based Criterion of Muscle Force
Prediction in Locomotion.'
J.Biomech 14(11) pp.793-801 (1981)
Pierrynowski and Morrison, 'A Physiological Model for the Evaluation of
Muscular Forces in Human Locomotion: Theoretical Aspects.'
Mathematical Biosciences 75: pp.69-101 (1985)
Ian Fisher
__________________________________________________ __________________
Biomechanics Section
Mechanical Engineering Dept.
Imperial College of ST & M.
i.fisher@ic.ac.uk
__________________________________________________ _________________
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
5-
Dear Maria
> Subject: optimization software
>
> In the paper ... the authors say:
> "...it has not yet been experimentally established whether human stance
> and locomotion do indeed obey an optimality principle. One reason this
> issue has not been settled would appear to be the few available mathema-
> tical results concerning analysis of the optimization problems involved."
>
> I intend to develop an animation system with capabilities to help
> in this kind of investigation.
It would appear to me that the task that you are setting yourself is
an impossible one. This is because "Optimization" is not a precise
mathematical operation but is dependant on opinion. To illustrate
this point I quote for Webster's Dictionary:
Optimization: to make as perfect, effective or functional as possible.
Optimism: an inclination to put the most favorable construction upon
actions and events or to anticipate the best possible outcome.
The key difference between these two definitions is that OPTIMIZATION
is an impersonal third person statement of fact. Use of the third
person is an established method of reporting scientific data, but
its use does not automatically make the subject a scientific
analysis.
The problem is that there is no mathematical symbol for "perfect as
possible". This is a human concept. The reason that there is no
"mathematical results concerning the analysis of the optimization
problems involved" is simply because the "problem" is neither
analytical nor mathematical; but dare I say is a figment of an overly
persistent (optimistic) scientific imagination.
I would personally conclude from the literature that BECAUSE THERE IS
NO EXPERIMENTAL VERIFICATION FOR THE OPTIMIZATION PRINCIPLE that it
does not exist, a conclusion that no doubt will be disputed by the
eternally optimistic. This criticism should come as no surprise
because it is a prerequisite for "optimization methods" that there
be a continual striving for an intractable answer (the definition of
an optimist?
The very concept of optimization accepts as a starting point that the
method is wrong. Surely the only debate is how wrong? A needless
question, I would suggest. An analysis of various optimization
methods, as you correctly suggest, would be a test of the Optimality
Principle. However such a study is neither impersonal nor logical,
therefore there cannot be impersonal logical software code available
on the subject. If you find some let me know!
I hope this answers two of the questions you posed:
> Is there already any software tools with such capabilities?
>If someone has any interest in this subject, which are the main
> characteristics or facilities do you think such a tool should
> have?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
Hi-
I'm interested in your post and I also know of some more
references, but I don't have time to find them now.
I'll try to get them to you.
I would also like to know where to locate the articles that
you mentioned in your post.
Cheers,
Mariano
garcia@tam.cornell.edu