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  • needle electrodes (summary)

    Dear netters,

    Many thanks to everybody who answered me about needle electrodes. You'll
    find enclose the summary of answers I got.

    Happy new year,


    Stephane

    Why not just buy stainless steel wire and then autoclave it.

    Eric

    Dr Eric Powell
    North Western Orthotic Unit
    Clinical Sciences Building
    Hope Hospital
    Eccles Old Road
    Salford M6 8HD
    United Kingdom
    telephone: (44) 0161 787 4243
    FAX: (44) 0161 787 4241
    (e-mail epowell@fs1.ho.man.ac.uk)
    http://www.hop.man.ac.uk/staff/epowell/epowell.html

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi Stephane,

    I know of a source for wire, that might be of interest to you because
    it is in France. It is 'Driver Harris', where we buy Nichrome wire,
    diameter 80 m. We use that for EMG measurements in the muscular
    layer of the jejunum of rats. We implant 4 pairs of wires, for
    differential measurements. This wire is not sterile, we sterilise it
    ourselves. If you want, I can send you a copy of an article in which
    the surgical procudere is described.

    As for sterile wire, I could send you a sample of an 'Electrode
    Myocardique de Stimulation Temporaire', which we bought of Medtronic
    in the Netherlands. But I doubt if that is what you need. Do you need
    wire, or needle or concentric needle? For animals or humans? Note that
    I am not an electrode expert, these are just two types that we use
    here.

    Succes,

    Leonard van Schelven

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You can, of course, simplyu "sterilize" the wire. 70% ethyl alcohol, for
    15 minutes will do the trick, after you have, obviously, pre-cleaned the
    "wire" with soap and water.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stephane,
    The California Fine Wire Company of Grover Beach, California has
    fine wires for use in electrodes. You will have to buy the needles
    seperately, then insert the wires into the needles, and use an
    autoclave to sterilize. Premade fine wire electrodes can be purchased
    through Nicolet Biomedical (5225 Verona Rd, Madison, WI, USA 53711,
    (608) 271-3333. Hope this helps.

    Greg Lange

    ************************************************** *******************
    Gregory W. Lange, M.S. (210) 705-6597 voice
    Engineer, Biomechanics Laboratory (210) 705-6567 fax
    Santa Rosa Outpatient Rehabilitation Center greg_lange@srhcc.org
    for Children and Adults
    2701 Babcock Road, San Antonio, Texas, 78229, USA
    ************************************************** *******************

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bonjour,
    Vous pouvez contacter Malcolm Forward à: M.Forward@orlau.demon.co.uk
    Il a utilisé de telles électrodes, j'ai publié qui était le fournisseur.
    Au revoir,
    Yves BLANC, PT, Ph.D.
    Laboratoire de Cinésiologie
    Hopital cantonal Universitaire
    1211 GENEVE 14 suisse
    Fax xx 41 22 / 37 27 799
    Phone xx 41 22 / 37 27 827

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dantec Medical of Denmark produces fine wire intramuscular wire:

    Dantec Medical A/S
    Tonsbakken 16-18
    DK 2740 Skovlunde Denmark
    Phone:+45 44 92 31 32


    I hope this is helpful.

    Prof JD Dishman
    Assoc Prof
    Dept of Anatomy
    NYCC
    Seneca Falls, NY USA

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stephane,

    This is where we buy our wire. I'm sure they will ship internationally.

    Wire: Size 002, Green, Stablohm 800A, Heavy-poly nylon, $135.00
    1000’ roll
    California Fine Wire Company
    338 S. Fourth Street
    P.O. Box 446
    Grover City, CA 93483
    Phone: (805) 489-5144, Fax: (805) 489-5352

    I hope these help,

    AnnaLisa

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hello

    Years and years ago I got a supply of wire from ³Johnson Matthey
    Metals Ltd². It was silver, enamel coated and called, apparently
    ³Trimel².
    The diameter was 0.002 inches (not I think mm). The batch was
    8677/2/74 so perhaps it was supplied in 1974 It seems to have been of

    about 50 g weight.

    It was not cheap but I cannot remember the cost.

    I still have some of it and could send you a small sample, if you
    cannot find another supplier.

    Johnson Matthey is a famous name the firm was based in London I think.
    There may have been commercial reorganisation and perhaps it is now
    part of a bigger business.

    The procedure I used was to separated two lengths of wire, then flame
    one end of each with a match. This loosened the enamel so that it
    could come away with gentle rubbing. The bare ends were then cut back
    to be about 2 mm long.

    The two wires were threaded through an intramuscular needle (This took
    some skill only obtained with considerable practice). The bare ends
    were turned back round the tip of the needle. This was then inserted
    into the muscle. The needle was then withdrawn leaving the wires
    (hopefully`) still in.

    The ends outside the body were flamed also to remove the enamel and
    were fixed into 4 mm screw terminals for connecting to the emg
    amplifier.

    I hope this may be of some help

    EGW
    --
    ************************************************** ********
    Email -

    Geoffrey.Walsh@ed.ac.uk

    http://www.ed.ac.uk/~gwalsh

    Phone (0)131.664.3046

    64, Liberton Drive,
    Edinburgh
    EH16 6NW
    U.K.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have just put Johnson+Matthey into a search engine on the WWW and
    there is a string of entries for different parts of th firm. The
    location I have copied as

    http://www.infoseek.com/Titles?qt=Johnson%2BMatthey&col=WW&sv=N5&svx=n
    ssbR3
    --
    ************************************************** ********
    Email -

    Geoffrey.Walsh@ed.ac.uk

    http://www.ed.ac.uk/~gwalsh

    Phone (0)131.664.3046

    64, Liberton Drive,
    Edinburgh
    EH16 6NW
    U.K.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    try using acupuncture needles
    they are sterile and frequently used for this

    alex
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Stephane,

    I hope someone else has a European source for you, if not here is one in
    the US.

    I have worked with fine wire electrodes and use wire from a US company
    called California Fine Wire Company, Grover Beach, CA 93433 phone
    (805)489-5144. The name of the wire that I use is "Stablohm 800A H-poly
    Nylon Green" and they have many more to choose from depending on your
    needs.

    The wire does not come sterilized, I make my own electrodes and sterilize
    the whole device in a package. As you may know, how to make and sterilze
    electrodes is described well in the book Muscles Alive, by John Basmajian
    and Carlo Deluca.

    Katy
    ************************************************** ******************
    Katy Rudolph, MSPT Ph: 302-831-4646
    University of Delaware Fax:302-831-4234
    Department of Physical Therapy krudolph@udel.edu
    303 McKinly Lab
    Newark, DE 19716

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    We use
    Medwire
    121 S. Columbus Ave.
    Mount Vernon, N.Y. 10553
    914-664-5300
    However, it is not sterile; We assemble the wire into electrodes, with the
    connector and needle, package them, clean them with alcohol and then
    sterilize them in the autoclave.

    Contact me if you need further information
    Richard V. Baratta, Ph.D.
    Associate Professor
    Director of Rehabilitative Engineering
    Louisiana State University Medical Center
    2025 Gravier Street, Suite 400
    New Orleans, LA 70112
    voice: 504-568-2251
    fax: 504-599-1144
    E-mail: rbarat@lsumc.edu

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Stephane,

    To make indwelling electrodes, you don't buy sterile wire. It could be
    contaminated by the time you put it into the needle for insertion. It's
    best to make up the wires in the cannula of the hypodermic needle and then
    autoclave the unit to sterilize it. We have never had any reported
    infection with this method. Of course you do not reuse needles or wires.
    Constructing the unit is described in detail in *Muscles Alive* by
    Basmajian and De Luca (1985) pp. 29-33. They also give names of
    manufacturers where the wire can be ordered.

    I bought my wire at a local electrical construction company about 10 years
    ago. It came in roll of a minimum of about 500 meters. I still probably
    have 400 meters left. They (Basmajian and De Luca) say 25 micrometer wire
    can be used but can easily break (although there is minimum hazard if the
    wire broke off in the muscle because it is so small - I have had tips
    remain in a couple of my own muscles without any problem). We also found
    the finer wire is difficult to work with because they are thinner than hair
    (even my thinning hair). We found 40 micrometer wire works well. If you use
    a 27 gauge needle, it is still difficult to get the wire through, but
    easier than the 50 or 75 gauge they also recommended. A 25 gauge needle is
    easier to work with, but more painful to the individual.

    Hope this helps.

    BE


    Bruce Etnyre, Ph.D., P.T. _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/
    Human Performance and _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
    Health Sciences Dept. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
    Rice University _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/
    6100 Main MS 545 _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
    Houston, Texas 77005 _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
    USA _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
    etnyre@rice.edu _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/
    (713)527-4058
    FAX: (713)285-5329


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Wire does not come sterile, & even if it did you would have to sterilize
    it after you made the electrodes. In the US I order from California Fine Wire
    Company, Grover City, CA 93433. I use the 0.002 or 0.00175 Stablohm 800-A
    H-Poly Nylon Green wire which is about $100 US. This is 1000 ft long. I hope
    this helps...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Stephane,

    We make fine-wire electrodes according to the Basmajian instructions (see
    below).
    Two wires are inserted into a muscle with a needle. The needle is then
    mmediately
    removed. Following is the text of a procedure description that we use in our
    gait
    laboratory.

    SHRINERS HOSPITALS FOR CHILDREN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA

    MOTION ANALYSIS LABORATORY POLICIES AND PROCEDURES

    FINE-WIRE ELECTRODE CONSTRUCTION

    I. POLICY

    Fine-wire electrodes will be constructed by staff members of the Motion
    Analysis Laboratory for electromyographic testing.

    II. PROCEDURES

    1. Obtain the supplies needed to construct the electrodes. The
    following is a list of supplies: Needles (25 gauge, 1 1/2 inch),
    Tower DualPeel Self Seal Pouches (7 1/2 x 13 inch), scissors,
    butane lighter, tweezers, and 50 micron, insulated, stainless
    steel wire. The wire can be special ordered from California Fine
    Wire Co., 338 South Fourth Street, P.O . Box 446, Grover City
    CA 93433, phone number (805) 489-5144.

    2. Construct the electrodes using the technique described by
    Basmajian and De Luca, in "Muscles Alive," 5th ed,
    Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore MD, 1985, page 31. See
    following diagram.

    3. After constructing the electrode, replace the cap on the
    needle and place the electrode in the self seal pouch.
    Write the date on the pouch.

    4. Sterilize the electrodes according to the policy described
    under Sterilization.

    One roll of wire currently costs about US$140 and should last for many years.

    I hope this is helpful to you. Best wishes for your research.

    Larry Lamoreux

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Stephane,

    Our group has been using bipolar indwelling wire emg at Sydney University,
    Australia for the last 12 months. Our wire is imported from the USA from
    A-M Systems, Inc. 11627-A Airport Road, Everett, WA 98204 USA Tel:
    800-426-1306 FAX: 206-353-9754. We were originally using .003" bare
    (stainless steel), .0045" coated (teflon) wire, but the manufacturer was
    concerned about "leakage" and has recently added an extra coat of teflon to
    bring the wire to be 0.005" coated. This change made it necessary for us
    to change the size of our hypodermic needles to fit the two strands of
    wire. We would prefer to use thinner wire.

    I wish to know of other sources of wire of a thickness (when doubled)
    suitable for 25 gauge hypodermic needles (and the costs per roll). I would
    greatly appreciate it if you would pass on any replies to your request
    either to me directly or on to the Biomechanics list serve. We have to
    import the wire anyway so if a source was located in Europe, it might be OK

    Thanks and Merry Christmas
    Jan

    Jan Douglas-Morris, (J.Douglas-Morris@cchs.usyd.eduau)
    Department of Biomedical Sciences, Telephone Voice 61 2 93519 141
    Faculty of Health Sciences, Fax 61 2 93519 520
    University of Sydney,
    East Street,
    Lidcombe NSW 2141
    Australia.




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