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    Dear BIOMCH-L Members:

    Here is the list of replies that I received to my posting before Christmas re: skin
    marker placement protocols for 3D shoulder kinematics studies. My apologies for
    the delay in posting these responses to the list. There are still a number of you
    who replied to me that I have not had time to contact yet. I will do so in the near
    future as time permits. I thank all of you very much for taking the time to respond.
    Your remarks and suggestions have been very helpful. For any of you that want
    further information please contact me directly. From my own reading, database
    searching (Medline, ERIC, etc.) and replies, I now have a very large reference list
    of shoulder papers ranging from instability to kinematics to EMG, etc. I would be
    pleased to provide references and/or information to anyone who needs or could
    be helped by this information. My original question appears below followed by the
    replies I received. Thanks again to everyone.



    John M. Barden, M.Sc.
    Ph.D. student
    Surgical-Medical Research Institute
    Department of Surgery
    Faculty of Medicine
    University of Alberta
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Canada T6G 2E2

    Research Associate
    Rehabilitation Technology Department
    Glenrose Rehabilitation Hospital
    10230-111 Ave.
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Canada T5G 0B7
    Work phone: +1 403 471-2262 ext. 2397
    Home phone: +1 403 477-6910

    ************************************************** ************************************

    I am looking for a skin marker placement protocol to measure the relative
    motion between the scapula and humerus in a number of upper limb movements
    in patients with multidirectional shoulder instability. I have not come
    across anything yet in my literature review. If anyone knows of any
    specific papers, or anything general on 3D kinematics of upper limb motion
    (i.e., placement of markers) I would greatly appreciate the information. I
    need to re-subscribe to this list so please send any information to my
    personal e-mail address.

    Many thanks in advance.

    ************************************************** *******************************

    Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:36:45 -0800
    From: Gideon Ariel
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Re:

    For such a measurement you must do it manually. No marker will give you
    good results.

    Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:42:26 +0100
    From: Jan Douglas-Morris
    Subject: 3-D

    Dear John,

    I have been searching for appropriate protocols myself to combine motion
    analysis studies with finewire indwelling EMG of the shoulder for my PhD so
    am very interested in any replies that you may receive, if you wouldn't
    mind passing them on or posting them on the listserve please.

    My overall feeling is that (i) 3-D analyses of shoulder movement are few
    but increasing in number with time (ii) for simple movement such as
    abduction in the coronal plane, bony landmarks are palpated and relative
    position recorded at set increments (step by step isometric contractions at
    predetermined joint angles)

    The literature talks about a palpameter used by the Dutch shoulder group, which
    may be of interest and I
    was going to follow up on this - but can't
    find the reference in my "large pile on the floor" lit search!!!

    Some articles of interest (possibly):

    Bagg, S. and Forrest, W.J. (1988) A biomechanical analysis of scapular
    rotation during arm abduction in the scapular plane Am J Phys Med Rehab
    Greenfield 1995 J Occup Sports Physio vol 21 287-295
    Paula Ludewig's work
    Also Hogfors J Biomechanchis 24 699-709 uses bone implantations and low
    dose Xray to study SHR

    Haven't much time at the moment to dig out any more.

    Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:45:25 +0100
    To: John Barden
    From: Jan Douglas-Morris
    Subject: Re: 3D Shoulder Marker Placement Protocol Request

    Dear John,

    Upon reading Paula Ludewig's article ["3-D scapular orientation and muscle
    activity at selected positions of humeral elevation" J Orthop and Sports
    Physical Therapy 24 (2) 57-65 1996] for this abstract I am writing the
    following references may be useful (unsighted by me) to you:

    An, K,N,, Browne, A.O. Korinek, S. Tanaka, S Morrey BF 3-D kinematics of
    gh elevation J Orthop res 9 143-149 1991

    Johnson GR and Anderson JM A method for measurement of 3-D shoulder
    movement by an electromagnetic sensor Clin Biomech 5 131-136 1990
    (reference is missing from our faculty library so I havne't seen it yet)

    Kondo, M Tazoe, S Yamada, M Changes in the tilting angle of the scapula
    following elevation of the arm In Batemean JE, WeklshRP (eds) Surgery of
    the Shoulder p12-16 Philadelphia BC Decker Inc 1984

    McQuade KJ The scapulohumeral rhythm: A 3-D kinematic anlsyis of the
    effects of load and fatigue during elevation of the arm in the scapular
    plane Unpublished doctoral thesis universiyt of Iowa Iowa City IA 1994
    (I would love a copy if you can got hold on one yourself)
    --->? article in Clin Biomech 10: 144-148 1995 ( I have a copy of this)

    Van der Helm, FCT Pronk, GM 3-D'al recording and descritpion of motions of
    the shoulder mechanism J Biomech Eng 117 27-40 1995

    Wei, SH. McQuade KJ, Smidt, GL 3-D joint range of motion measurements from
    skeletal coordinate data J Orthop Sports Phys Ther 18(1) 687-691 1993

    I noticed the Dutch palpater is referenced in the Ludewig article
    James Wickham from Wollongong Uni (1 1/2 hours south of Sydney) is also
    working on the shoulder (functional differentiation of large superficial
    muscles, biomechanics orientation, modelling) with multiple miniature
    surface electrodes (up to 7 for deltoid eg).

    Hope some of this helps

    Jan Douglas-Morris, (
    Department of Biomedical Sciences, Telephone Voice 61 2 93519 141
    Faculty of Health Sciences, Fax 61 2 93519 520
    University of Sydney,
    East Street,
    Lidcombe NSW 2141

    Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:27:14 +0100
    From: "Movement Analisys Lab."
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Re:

    Hi, as you are from Canada, you may find something useful in

    The development of a 'technical array' marker set for studying the
    kinematics of the upper limb. Williams JR, Leardini A, Catani F. Annual
    Meeting of the Canadian Orthopaedic Research Society (May 24-25 1996 Quebec).

    For any further detail do not hesitate to contact me again.
    Merry Christmas

    Alberto Leardini

    __________________________________________________ _________________

    Movement Analysis Lab. Department of Orthopaedic Surgery - Istituto Ortopedico
    Via Di Barbiano, 1/10 40136 Bologna, ITALY
    tel: ++39 51 6366520 (secretary)
    ++39 51 6366571 (direct)
    fax: ++39 51 583789

    Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 9:46 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
    From: Kim Burton
    To: jbarden@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA
    Subject: Re: == No Subject ==

    You could start with:Johnson GR et al. A method for the measurement of
    scapular movement. Clin Biomech 1993;8:269-273.

    Dr Kim Burton
    Editor, Clinical Biomechanics,
    30 Queen Street, Huddersfield HD1 2SP, UK
    Voice: +44 1484 535200

    Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:14:37 -0700
    From: Cole Galloway
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Re:

    Mr Barden
    I am also very interested in this issue.
    Please pass along any information your receive from your inquiry.

    Many thanks
    Cole Galloway

    ================================================== =========
    C.Galloway, PT
    Dept Physiology/Physiological Sciences Program
    University of Arizona 1501 North Campbell Ave., Room 4104 Tucson, AZ
    Ph: 520-626-7718 Fax: 520-626-2383 Email:

    Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:04:24 -0000
    From: "John R. Williams"
    Subject: Shoulder Kinematics

    This area is very difficult with skin markers as the skin motion artefacts
    are large. I did some work on this using the Vicon system as part of my
    Doctorate thesis. Veronica Conboy, also at Oxford, has done more work in
    this area including the application of optimisation routines (SVD) to
    improve the output.

    If you what additional info then e-mail me directly and I will send you the
    relevant chapters of the thesis and get Veronica to contact you.

    John R. Williams
    Westview House
    7 Sarsden Close
    Chipping Norton
    OXON OX7 3LJ
    01608 676700

    Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:57:54 -0500 (EST)
    From: Peter J Barrance
    To: J Barden
    Cc: John Elias ,
    Melanie Kinchen
    Subject: Shoulder kinematics

    Dear John,

    We have some ongoing research projects in the area of shoulder
    kinematics. Currently, we are using cadaver models to study passive
    motion and impingement sites. Please access our website
    ( for a short description of our work. We would be
    interested in any responses you receive related to in vivo motion measurement


    Peter Barrance

    Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:00:26 -0800 (PST)
    From: Frans van der Helm
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Re: your mail

    Dear John,

    In the Dutch Shoulder Group ( ) we
    are recording the positions of the scapula and humerus with an
    electromagnetic recording device, the Flock-of-Bird system. In the
    proceedings of the First Conference of the International Shoulder Group
    some papers of the recordings and data processing were published. I can
    send you a copy if you want.
    The method is based on a palpation technique, thus only static positions
    are recorded. Carel Meskers has submitted a number of papers about the
    methodology and applications. Accuracy is quite good, about 2 degrees
    measurement error while the intra-individual accuracy ('motor noise': the
    ability to reproduce the same position again) is somewhat higher.
    Static measurements mean that you can not record the actual moment of
    dislocation in the multidirectional shoulder instability. We have looked
    into that problem, but could not solve it yet to record it dynamically
    (and accurately).
    Using skin markers instead of palpating directly the bony landmarks is
    likely to add to the measurement error, since the markers are not exactly
    located on the bony landmarks.

    Frans van der Helm

    ************************************************** *****************

    Frans C.T. van der Helm, PhD
    Man-Machine Systems Group
    Lab. for Measurement and Control
    Dept. of Mechanical Engineering and Marine Technology
    Delft University of Technology
    Mekelweg 2
    2628 CD Delft
    The Netherlands

    tel.: (+31)-15-2785616
    fax.: (+31)-15-2784717

    Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 09:11:43 MET
    Subject: marker locations

    Dear John,
    surprising that you did not find anything from the International Shoulder
    Group. You can get info from
    their web site at:
    If you are interested, I have copies of the Proceedings of the first Conference
    of the ISG available. These
    also contain info on measurement procedures related to 3-D shoulder kinematics.


    DirkJan Veeger
    ISG secretary

    Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:44:03 -0500 (EST)
    From: Suzanne R Babyar
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Re: your mail

    Dear J Barden

    I am working on a system to track scapular and humeral motion but I am
    only at the validation stage of development. The best I can offer you at
    this point is a protocol I used for a previous study to track scapular
    elevation during shoulder flexion to 90 degrees:

    Babyar SR. 1996. Excessive scapular motion in individuals recovering from
    painful and stiff shoulders: Causes and treatment" Physical Therapy
    76(3): 226-238.

    If you need to reach Micromechanist Software, contact me, they are no
    longer at the address listed in the article.

    Good Luck,

    Sue Babyar, PhD, PT
    Hunter College
    Physical Therapy Program
    425 East 25th Street
    New York, NY 10010

    Date: 06 Jan 98 17:11:17 +0100
    To: J Barden
    Subject: Marker placement

    Hi John,

    I noticed your message to biomch-l. I'm just putting together a review
    paper on arm motion analyses which includes a discussion of marker
    placement. Unfortunately there is no one answer since it depends on your
    tracking system, the number of cameras etc. and everybody has used something
    different. Can you tell me what your setup and protocol are? What is the
    goal of your research? The scapula moves under the skin, so you must
    palpate the given positions statically: how are you planning to handle this?
    I'll give you some references once I have a better idea what you are
    looking for.


    Carolyn Anglin
    Sulzer Orthopedics Ltd.
    P.O. Box 65
    CH 8404 Winterthur

    Tel: +41 (52) 262 68 32
    Fax: +41 (52) 262 01 87

    From: umgill19@cc.UManitoba.CA
    Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:43:28 -0600 (CST)
    To: John Barden
    Subject: Re: Replies to 3D shoulder kinematics post

    Hello John, I'm well under way in a project for my Masters in Sport
    Biomechanics at the University of Manitoba on glenohumeral kinematics
    during a golf swing comparing three groups of golfers. The three groups
    are a group of normals, a group of golfers with a recently repaired
    rotator cuff, and a group of golfers with a current tear in their rotator
    cuff. Anyway, your responses concerning 3-D shoulder kinematics would be
    of great interest to me, especially any material on describing range of
    motion using motion analysis, preferably Peak. I look forward to
    chatting with you. Talk to you soon.

    Bill Gillespie

    Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:40:55 -0800 (PST)
    From: karine lecarpentier
    To: jbarden@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA
    Subject: Scapula Skin Marker Protocol

    Dear John,

    Your problem looks very similar to my Master's thesis. I was also studying the
    movements of the humerus with respect to the scapula. More precisely, I was
    studying glenohumeral translations. To track the humerus and the scapula, I was
    using electro-magnetic sensors.

    One sensor was attached to the elbow of the patient (epicondyle I think).
    The elbow was maintained at 90 degrees to prevent any movement of the elbow
    and therefore prevent movements of the sensor with respect to the bone (skin

    The second sensor was attached to the fingers of the tester, and the tester
    would palpate the acromion. By palpating the acromion, the tester would also
    prevent the skin to move on
    top of the bone.

    We ran into some problems though. Even though we could track the movements
    of the acromion fairly accurately, the positions we were intersting in were
    the ones of the glenoid. Because the scapula rotates a lot during abduction
    movements, the movements of the acromion is actually not the one of the

    We thought about tracking some other points on the scapula the same way, for
    instance the lower extremity of the scapula, but this has not been pursued.

    If you want any additional information, please feel free to ask.
    If you are thinking of pursuing the idea of electro-magnetic sensors, there
    are a lot of things to be aware of. I wrote a paper on it. It is still
    under review, but I could send you a copy.

    Good luck!