Tweet
Hello
Several weeks ago, I post a message.I only recived 3 reply,
but I discussed something further more with them.
My original message is below
================================================== =======================
I couldn't help talking some thought again. Usually human
swing contralateral arm and leg while walking, otherwise we only make
joke to amuse others. Now, sword fighting ready, save a quick
tennisball immediatelly, boxing ready etc, what should we do?
Yes, swing arm and leg at the same side. (left or right)
I have learned much biomechanics knowledge about
diagonal arm and leg. thank you very much. Are there any works in this
kind of radiculous walking method?I confess that my thought is along
this line because walking is the basic human moving posture: swing
contralateral arm and leg, do not swing arm, then swing
arm and leg at the same side. After several years of correct Taichi
training, we can swing arm and leg at the same side while walking without
uncomfort . Of course we do not do this in the street, and swing arm
leg at the same side is not Taichi bagua training method. Will this increase
our stride and starting speed. Sometimes human must quickly start to
move hisCOM and body at zero speed. In other words, human need big
acceleration at zero speed sometimes. Although we practice different
sport, there are common interest for the same kind of body. Sometimes
Fighting Taichi posture is similar to sword fighting posture. on the basis of
more balancing and moving ability, Will our arms and hands have more
ability no matter in which kind of sport? Will human get this by soft slow
Chinese Taichi training method? Of course there are other successful
training method. I think with addaptive experiment design scientists can
deduce some commom theory for varied kinds of sports about this.
Perhaps much work has been done. I know some researchers
are analyzing balancing ability about elder persons who practice Chinese
Taichi.
================================================== =========================
These are original replies without editing, but I delete their names
================================================== =========================
I always enjoy reading your contributions on biomechanics and traditional
Chinese methods of exercise. Much of the ancient Chinese wisdom has a great
deal to teach us in the West and I would be most interested in seeing more
scientists around the world becoming more seriously involved in understanding
and applying more of your methods.
I have never been to China, but visited Russia to work on collaborative
research projects with some of their sports scientists and biomechanists and
that experience really taught me that the East can teach us a great deal. My
visits to Russia eventually allowed me to write a book ("Supertraining" - on
the biomechanics and physiology of strength training) with one of their famous
sports scientists, Dr Verkhoshansky.
I did karate for many years and worked together with a Chinese Tai Chi master
and various acupuncturists while I was living in South Africa until last year,
so that is what taught me a warm appreciation for methods which originated in
China.
I look forward to discussing more of your ideas with you.
---------------
>>
>>Thank you for your reply - as usual, you wrote some good ideas again. It
>>really is a wise concept to integrate martial arts and biomechanical methods
>>of training. We must continue to talk more about these ideas - I have also
>>been trying to do what you speak about for a long time, but many martial
>>artists seem to be very dogmatic about tradition and the past.
>>
Very sincerely
mcsiff@aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Chengzhi:
I have read quite a lot of your writing on Biomch-l news. They are very
interesting. And about your Taichi and Baqua interpretation, I may have
different opinions. On your website, the bony structures viewed from the
lateral side are different for the normal standing posture and TaiChi
standing posture. I have to admit that the TaiChi's standing posture has
less lordosis in the lumbar area but the lordosis does not complete
disappear. You may feel like you don't have any lordosis while practicing
it, but it is impossible and biomechanically not healthy to remove the
lordosis since the lumbar area doesn't have such a range of motion.
About the TaiChi movements, practioners do move leg and arm on the same side
the same time, but not "swing", neither "continue" moving right leg right
arm, left leg left arm in a fast way. In BaQua, you may have fixed hands
posture while walking, but it might take more energy. Think of this, while
we walk, say from the standing posture and we move our right legs forward,
at the same time our left legs push the ground. The forces given from the
ground produce a momentum. Without arm swing and body twisting, this
momentum will be stop while the right legs touch the ground, even more, the
new ground force to the right legs will produce the oppsite momentum.
However, if we swing our arms and twist our body, it saves a lot energy.
Let's see how. Again, if you step out your right leg, the ground force to
the left leg produce a "clockwise" momentum viewed from the top of the head
down to the ground. This will naturally cause the whole system to have a CW
momentum, and this will show on the left arm swing forward, right arm swing
backward and body twisting CW. Of course You may limit these movement by
applying friction force to the ground to stop it and this takes more energy
and training, too, in the BaQua walking exercises.
If you tie your arms to the back, it must be so hard to walk and hard to do
Taichi and BaQua, too. Don't you think so.
htchang@glis.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello. I've read your mail and suprised at your subject.
Because while I'm learning Taichi Quan also, (only 1 years , so I'm not good at that yet) and
as student in Biomechanics Lab., I've thought about balance problem also.
Did you read David. A. Winter's papers on human balancing problem?
And, in the 'Arm and leg swing at same side', that is possibly a kind of walking.
I've heard that in ancient Japan, japanese walked with swing their limb at same side, called 'Nanba' steps.
However, althought I have great interest on your question, I'm sorry that I have few things to help you.
Good luck.
at
KAIST, Mechanical Engineering, Republic of Korea
maltese@daidun.kaist.ac.kr
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
discussion summary
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Hello,
> It is difficult to find biomechanics journals or papers in my
>circumstance
> I think martial art is not only some fighting and training posture
>but also a kind of ability gotten from these postures. Because walking is
>the basic human moving posture, swing arm and leg at the same side
>without uncomfort will be the superficial representation of this ability.
>Martial art master can exert his ability to defend or attack at no matter what
>posture. human has such a wonderful system that he can eliminate minutely
>the two side effect most biomechanist refer to. This effect will lead to 0.xx
>seconds preparative time during serial fighting movement or encountering
>attack. In ancient battlefield, 0.xx seconds meant death and living when human
>used swords and spears . We need a pair of free arms in varied kinds of sports.
> My aim is below
> 1. scientific guide for Taichi bagua training. Some times some peoples
>practice wrong. Martial art practitioners always talk about their own unique
>feeling generation by generation, Although Varied types of
>Taichi and bagua have the same ancestor "Dong Haichuan" and " Zhang Sanfeng"
>This is not blood blade era, So we need biomechanics.If we do not understand
>the essence hided beneath
>the past and tradition, it will go with the wind. No one dare boast that
>he achieve the ultimate, but we can deduce something from experiments and
>idealization.
> 2 Deduce new training methods from unique soft slow Taichi Bagua
>training methods for some modern sports to reject exhilarant drugs. let asian
>stature challenge some modern sports.
> 3 Improve human health including health of spine and old people.
> 4 Research Chinese Taichi philosophy by these training methods. At
> first we exert rigid body model, then perhaps deduce new model for
>continous diagonal torsion of Taichi Bagua.
> scientific theory need a external observer, but Taichi training has a
>internal observer inside system. Western scientific theory and eastern philosophy
>are different at this point, but now in quantum theory scientists confront
>contradiction of external observer. Human is comprized by substances,but has
>consciousness other than animal's. We have unique experimental sample.Yes,
>consciousness and substances.
>-----------------------------------------------
> Ppossible research methods is below:
> Gait analyse.motor control. spine engine. energy cost.balancing problem
> etc.
> EMG can reflect the relaxation of practitioner's body.In Taichi bagua
>training we are requested to relax whole body as far as possible.
> Running and walking? Potential power =possible maximal power - costing power.
>-----------------------------------------------
> My teacher let two stronger young men grasp and twist his two arms
>to his back ,then he can easily relieve himself,at the same time he grasps and twists
>their arms to force their bodies to the ground.
> Perhaps Biomechanics can tell us the reason why one thinner hand can defeat
>two stronger hands at the same time in a normal hand wrestling game.
>
>-----------------------------------------------
I posted messages several times before, and I recived many replies. Sorry for losing
some of them, because my computer collapse.
thank you.
Graduate student of MSc.
Computer Science Department
Tianjin University
The People's Republic of China
E_mail: baguamen@public1.tpt.tj.cn
E_mail:tjwangcz@263.net
http://www.netease.com/~baguamen
---------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe send SIGNOFF BIOMCH-L to LISTSERV@nic.surfnet.nl
For information and archives: http://isb.ri.ccf.org/biomch-l
---------------------------------------------------------------
Several weeks ago, I post a message.I only recived 3 reply,
but I discussed something further more with them.
My original message is below
================================================== =======================
I couldn't help talking some thought again. Usually human
swing contralateral arm and leg while walking, otherwise we only make
joke to amuse others. Now, sword fighting ready, save a quick
tennisball immediatelly, boxing ready etc, what should we do?
Yes, swing arm and leg at the same side. (left or right)
I have learned much biomechanics knowledge about
diagonal arm and leg. thank you very much. Are there any works in this
kind of radiculous walking method?I confess that my thought is along
this line because walking is the basic human moving posture: swing
contralateral arm and leg, do not swing arm, then swing
arm and leg at the same side. After several years of correct Taichi
training, we can swing arm and leg at the same side while walking without
uncomfort . Of course we do not do this in the street, and swing arm
leg at the same side is not Taichi bagua training method. Will this increase
our stride and starting speed. Sometimes human must quickly start to
move hisCOM and body at zero speed. In other words, human need big
acceleration at zero speed sometimes. Although we practice different
sport, there are common interest for the same kind of body. Sometimes
Fighting Taichi posture is similar to sword fighting posture. on the basis of
more balancing and moving ability, Will our arms and hands have more
ability no matter in which kind of sport? Will human get this by soft slow
Chinese Taichi training method? Of course there are other successful
training method. I think with addaptive experiment design scientists can
deduce some commom theory for varied kinds of sports about this.
Perhaps much work has been done. I know some researchers
are analyzing balancing ability about elder persons who practice Chinese
Taichi.
================================================== =========================
These are original replies without editing, but I delete their names
================================================== =========================
I always enjoy reading your contributions on biomechanics and traditional
Chinese methods of exercise. Much of the ancient Chinese wisdom has a great
deal to teach us in the West and I would be most interested in seeing more
scientists around the world becoming more seriously involved in understanding
and applying more of your methods.
I have never been to China, but visited Russia to work on collaborative
research projects with some of their sports scientists and biomechanists and
that experience really taught me that the East can teach us a great deal. My
visits to Russia eventually allowed me to write a book ("Supertraining" - on
the biomechanics and physiology of strength training) with one of their famous
sports scientists, Dr Verkhoshansky.
I did karate for many years and worked together with a Chinese Tai Chi master
and various acupuncturists while I was living in South Africa until last year,
so that is what taught me a warm appreciation for methods which originated in
China.
I look forward to discussing more of your ideas with you.
---------------
>>
>>Thank you for your reply - as usual, you wrote some good ideas again. It
>>really is a wise concept to integrate martial arts and biomechanical methods
>>of training. We must continue to talk more about these ideas - I have also
>>been trying to do what you speak about for a long time, but many martial
>>artists seem to be very dogmatic about tradition and the past.
>>
Very sincerely
mcsiff@aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Chengzhi:
I have read quite a lot of your writing on Biomch-l news. They are very
interesting. And about your Taichi and Baqua interpretation, I may have
different opinions. On your website, the bony structures viewed from the
lateral side are different for the normal standing posture and TaiChi
standing posture. I have to admit that the TaiChi's standing posture has
less lordosis in the lumbar area but the lordosis does not complete
disappear. You may feel like you don't have any lordosis while practicing
it, but it is impossible and biomechanically not healthy to remove the
lordosis since the lumbar area doesn't have such a range of motion.
About the TaiChi movements, practioners do move leg and arm on the same side
the same time, but not "swing", neither "continue" moving right leg right
arm, left leg left arm in a fast way. In BaQua, you may have fixed hands
posture while walking, but it might take more energy. Think of this, while
we walk, say from the standing posture and we move our right legs forward,
at the same time our left legs push the ground. The forces given from the
ground produce a momentum. Without arm swing and body twisting, this
momentum will be stop while the right legs touch the ground, even more, the
new ground force to the right legs will produce the oppsite momentum.
However, if we swing our arms and twist our body, it saves a lot energy.
Let's see how. Again, if you step out your right leg, the ground force to
the left leg produce a "clockwise" momentum viewed from the top of the head
down to the ground. This will naturally cause the whole system to have a CW
momentum, and this will show on the left arm swing forward, right arm swing
backward and body twisting CW. Of course You may limit these movement by
applying friction force to the ground to stop it and this takes more energy
and training, too, in the BaQua walking exercises.
If you tie your arms to the back, it must be so hard to walk and hard to do
Taichi and BaQua, too. Don't you think so.
htchang@glis.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello. I've read your mail and suprised at your subject.
Because while I'm learning Taichi Quan also, (only 1 years , so I'm not good at that yet) and
as student in Biomechanics Lab., I've thought about balance problem also.
Did you read David. A. Winter's papers on human balancing problem?
And, in the 'Arm and leg swing at same side', that is possibly a kind of walking.
I've heard that in ancient Japan, japanese walked with swing their limb at same side, called 'Nanba' steps.
However, althought I have great interest on your question, I'm sorry that I have few things to help you.
Good luck.
at
KAIST, Mechanical Engineering, Republic of Korea
maltese@daidun.kaist.ac.kr
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
discussion summary
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Hello,
> It is difficult to find biomechanics journals or papers in my
>circumstance
> I think martial art is not only some fighting and training posture
>but also a kind of ability gotten from these postures. Because walking is
>the basic human moving posture, swing arm and leg at the same side
>without uncomfort will be the superficial representation of this ability.
>Martial art master can exert his ability to defend or attack at no matter what
>posture. human has such a wonderful system that he can eliminate minutely
>the two side effect most biomechanist refer to. This effect will lead to 0.xx
>seconds preparative time during serial fighting movement or encountering
>attack. In ancient battlefield, 0.xx seconds meant death and living when human
>used swords and spears . We need a pair of free arms in varied kinds of sports.
> My aim is below
> 1. scientific guide for Taichi bagua training. Some times some peoples
>practice wrong. Martial art practitioners always talk about their own unique
>feeling generation by generation, Although Varied types of
>Taichi and bagua have the same ancestor "Dong Haichuan" and " Zhang Sanfeng"
>This is not blood blade era, So we need biomechanics.If we do not understand
>the essence hided beneath
>the past and tradition, it will go with the wind. No one dare boast that
>he achieve the ultimate, but we can deduce something from experiments and
>idealization.
> 2 Deduce new training methods from unique soft slow Taichi Bagua
>training methods for some modern sports to reject exhilarant drugs. let asian
>stature challenge some modern sports.
> 3 Improve human health including health of spine and old people.
> 4 Research Chinese Taichi philosophy by these training methods. At
> first we exert rigid body model, then perhaps deduce new model for
>continous diagonal torsion of Taichi Bagua.
> scientific theory need a external observer, but Taichi training has a
>internal observer inside system. Western scientific theory and eastern philosophy
>are different at this point, but now in quantum theory scientists confront
>contradiction of external observer. Human is comprized by substances,but has
>consciousness other than animal's. We have unique experimental sample.Yes,
>consciousness and substances.
>-----------------------------------------------
> Ppossible research methods is below:
> Gait analyse.motor control. spine engine. energy cost.balancing problem
> etc.
> EMG can reflect the relaxation of practitioner's body.In Taichi bagua
>training we are requested to relax whole body as far as possible.
> Running and walking? Potential power =possible maximal power - costing power.
>-----------------------------------------------
> My teacher let two stronger young men grasp and twist his two arms
>to his back ,then he can easily relieve himself,at the same time he grasps and twists
>their arms to force their bodies to the ground.
> Perhaps Biomechanics can tell us the reason why one thinner hand can defeat
>two stronger hands at the same time in a normal hand wrestling game.
>
>-----------------------------------------------
I posted messages several times before, and I recived many replies. Sorry for losing
some of them, because my computer collapse.
thank you.
Graduate student of MSc.
Computer Science Department
Tianjin University
The People's Republic of China
E_mail: baguamen@public1.tpt.tj.cn
E_mail:tjwangcz@263.net
http://www.netease.com/~baguamen
---------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe send SIGNOFF BIOMCH-L to LISTSERV@nic.surfnet.nl
For information and archives: http://isb.ri.ccf.org/biomch-l
---------------------------------------------------------------