New Lab Setup, HELP

[Alex Limon]

Hello, I am new to the forum and new to the whole biomechanics business, so please bear with me.

I am setting up a new biomechanics lab from scratch, mostly for sports and basic joint analysis. I am an electrical engineer, my partners are a doctor and a sports trainer. My job it to get the basic startup equipment, and I know very little and budget needs to be considered. I know I want to have a 3D motion capture system because I believe that will be the main selling point in my market.

Please suggest what equipment, software, accessories are the must have for a basic setup. Your suggestions on brands and specs are very welcome. I am also considering to purchase a complete used setup if I can find one.

Thanks in Advance,

Alex

[Amartya Ganguly]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Hi Alex,

If you want a 3D motion capture system, you need to consider what kind of experiments you are going to perform. There are many systems in the market, for example, Vicon, Qualisys along with their respective software (Nexus, Bodybuilder, Visual 3D) etc. You would need force plates AMTI, Kistler, Bertec are quite reliable and also EMG systems Delsys, Noraxon, Cometa etc.

Depending on the lab space you have, the respective company can give you fairly good advice as to how many cameras you would need. Of course, getting all this together can become quite expensive.

Hope this helps me. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need more information.

Best wishes,
Amartya Ganguly (amartya.ganguly@marsibionics.com)
Innovation Associate
Marsi Bionics

[Robert D. Catena]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

I think a lot of people have opinions (some strong) about the best equipment for a lab setup, but this website has done a good job of being impartial; not advertising one brand over another. So, i don't think you will get as much explicit help here. I would suggest that if you have general questions about equipment types (not brands) for specific research questions that you state those here, as that might get more responses. I also suggest that you contact companies directly. They can talk to you about the benefits of their product and probably direct you to some users to comment on the products. I imagine now, a few company reps will read this thread and contact you directly knowing you are in the market for some equipment. You can also search out labs that you want to emulate and see what equipment they are using and talk to them about their likes/dislikes

I remember about 15 years ago seeing a website devoted to listing biomechanics equipment companies. I don't know where that is or if it is now outdated, but you might search for that. Anyone else know of this website I am thinking of? If it is gone now, this would be nice to post on BiomchL or for ASB or ISB websites to consider.

[Ton van den Bogert]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Robert Catena remembered the "Biomechanics Yellow Pages" that we had in the old days. Updates to the Yellow Pages were always posted on Biomch-L, this is how we provided a channel for companies to advertise themselves. On the current system, this is no longer structured in any way, any commercial announcement can now be posted in the "Products and Services" forum.

The ISB website now hosts the Yellow Pages:

https://isbweb.org/resources/yellow-pages

https://isbweb.org/75-content/yellow-pages/208-biomechanics-yellow-pages

The link to submit new material does not seem to work properly and I have informed the ISB webmaster.

--

Ton van den Bogert, Biomch-L co-moderator

[Manvendra Singh]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

If it is just for joint kinematics, any Inertial, Magnetometer, accelerometer combined 3D Motion Tracker with Biomechanics modelling and analysis software like Motion Monitor or Visual3D would do just fine at a low budget and will allow large area tracking. These will work best for outdoors. But, they have drift, and are affected by metals, so, if you plan to do inverse dynamics as well with Force Platforms or synchronize with other systems like EMG systems, they are not that suitable.
Electromagnetic 3D Motion Trackers are good and cost effective options for drift free, calibration free tracking with BioMechanics software for Sports Biomechanics and have added advantage of being natively 6DOF. But Metals in the vicinity are problem with them too.
Optical trackers provide higher positional accuracy and frame rate depending on system and model (cost will vary from moderate to very high and their use also requires some expertise, training) but have issues like line-of-sight, occlusion, calibration, lighting etc.. Passive marker systems have additional problem of marker swapping, specially relevant for high speed motions in sports. Active marker systems do not have swapping problem. There are optical marker less systems available too. But they do not have any issues with metals in the environment, so suitable for indoors and synchronized data recording with other hardwares. A general purpose Biomechanics modelling and analysis software (as opposed to vendor specific ones) is still recommended.
Having said that, first zero-in on your requirements, such as capture speed, accuracy, tracking range, type of technology, ease of use (need for calibration and complexity involved), environment (indoor/outdoor, metals, obstructions in line of sight, lighting), real-time modeling and analysis or simply off-line working with other hardwares so on and so forth, will work best for you. I know it can be an overwhelming exercise but worth going through so that you do not end up with something so heavy and costly that might just be overkill, or a solution that just does not serve the purpose, given host of choices in the market today.

[Alex Limon]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Thanks a lot for the information.
To narrow the request, I am building a 30ft x 25ft x 15ft test area indoors with no obstructions. It will be mostly for bike fit, gait, run and some other sports analysis (soccer and Karate mostly). Will also work with a group of Orthopedic Doctors to implement some medical motion applications. I am considering a 6 camera 100fps system from STT (Spain based) with a pressure plate integrated, what do you think of such system?.
That is a much as I know, which is very little knowledge that I gathered reading in the last few weeks. I am considering taking a Master degree on similar related curse soon. Regarding training and calibration, I believe I can handle complex systems if needed.
Basically I am looking for the basic setup with real time analysis and modeling to show to the customers while testing. I want to have a basic but upgradable system to be able to provide services. Affordable but not "cheap"
I understand most of the terminology used in your replies but not all, but I will keep educating myself. Thanks again

[Amartya Ganguly]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

The test area seems sufficient for a basic gait system for a six camera setup. A strain gauge force platform would suffice. Most companies generally include training days and they generally give good support, some even to do it through team viewer. Modelling software come with the systems but if you don't want to use them, Opensim can be used and for signal analysis everything can be exported to MATLAB.

[Edmund Cramp]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Welcome, my suggestion would be to visit any motion labs in your area and look at what they use and recommend - when you are first entering the motion capture environment it's very useful to have some local friends who can offer quick hints and tips for overcoming problems. To get started, I'd suggest hiring someone who has experience in motion capture to run the lab, and going with their recommendations - the best equipment is always the equipment that you know how to use.

[Edmund Cramp]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

I agree with your recommendations and I'd like to add a minor historical perspective.

The "marker-swapping" problem was largely avoided in the early days of motion capture because the models (Helen Hayes etc) placed the markers on the subject in positions that rarely caused a problem with overlapping trajectories. I did a lot of technical support for Motion Capture labs in those days and the vast majority of problems that I had to sort out with customers data were due to the user identifying the markers incorrectly, or mistakenly switching identifications because they thought they they knew better than the software.

[Manvendra Singh]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

6 Camera Optical system is good way to start with full body tracking. You can always upgrade later if tracking volume covered with 6 cameras falls short of requirements. Pressure Plate is fine for plantar pressure measurements (testing the shoes for sports). At least a single 6 component force platform is also recommended for joint dynamics computations, useful for both patients gait and sports applications, 2 or more is always better to shorten the session time. You have to decide if you need EMG signals too. They provide useful information about extent and timing of muscle activations during motions, relevant for both Sports and Medical applications.
About system specific modeling softwares, issue is that they provide limited capabilities compared to dedicated Biomechanics softwares. For example, you may discover that you can not define virtual markers, or segments, in those.
OpenSIM is good, free software but is limited in no. of models. You can use whatever models are already there. Learning curve is steep, no commercial support and for a clinical setting, it might not offer all required features. It is good for Research settings. For clinical setups, it might be a good complementing software to Biomechanics software for curious professionals, as it offers advanced capabilities such as Forward Dynamics simulations, Static Optimization, Computed Muscle control etc..

[Alex Limon]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Thanks Again. In my area, is very limited the support I can get and finding a person with experience has been a challenge. for now I believe I am on my own. I believe I will go initially with the 6 camera setup and the software they already have to keep it simple for now. Regarding the 6 component force platform, how is that used? I do not find any useful info online.
I will also download openSIM, to get myself familiar. Any opinions on STT system?

[Edmund Cramp]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

When I first started installing motion capture systems back in the 80's, five cameras was considered a top-end system - most first time clinical labs performing analysis with the Helen Hayes Software started with just three or four cameras and a single force plate. As funds because available the first thing added to the lab was a second force plate, followed by an EMG system - adding additional cameras was the final stage.

[Alex Limon]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

I am considering to get also a in-shoe pressure mapping, similar to the f-scan from tekscan, in addition to the cameras.

I’n your opinion, a force plate is a must?
What else is a must?

[Manvendra Singh]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

Edmund has given a good idea about how to progress, as was done in old days, except that no. of cameras you will start with will be better at 6. For full body, at last 6 cameras are required. If you google, you will find a large no, of resources related to 6 component (3 forces and 3 moments of Ground Reaction Force vector ) Force Platforms. Force Platform measures dynamic Ground Reaction Force applied by foot on itself, that in turn serves as input to Inverse Dynamics solver algorithm (in addition to synchrnously recorded 3D motion data) to compute Inverse Dynamics parameters like joint forces, torques and power. The are generally embedded in floor (top of Force Platform at same level as top of floor surrounding it) of the walkway.
Going through OpenSIM is an excellent idea.

[Edmund Cramp]

Re: New Lab Setup, HELP

As this is the first time that you are setting up a lab, considering the amount of money that you will spend to put the lab together, I would strongly recommend that you try to locate a working motion capture lab somewhere that you can visit for a few days - the cost of the travel would be a worthwhile investment if it saves you from buying just one piece of equipment that you might never use.